Randle and Thibs - Both need to hit the road

[Knicks Boogie]

if you watched and you listened Heat players were wide open, no it wasn't the Knicks defense, go back and read the game threads okay, it's almost play by play of horrid defense leaving guys open.

Can't tell you how many times Strus was wide, wide open.

moving on, we lost end of conversation, it was a terrible series all around except for Brunny.

It was experience needed to move to the next level... Jimmy Butler use to have Randle type of games in the playoffs too when he was younger. He really didn't play well in Minny or Chicago in the playoffs. He has learned how to win in the playoffs along with Bam and most of the same roster they have this playoffs... Chemistry.... and it has been out shining star players.

I never said the Knicks played lock down defense, I said that the Knicks played better defense than any other team that has played the Heat this playoffs. The Celtics have been turning it up this last 2 games, but overall this series, Celtics defense has been worse than the Knicks... Bucks too

[ewing]

well it's sure not allstar who performs well in the playoffs? To me equal value is Grant if he can even be had?

Only reason is Portland can lose him for nothing so it makes sense for both teams, if Grant gets a nice offer he'd probably stay though , who knows?

That’s the problem with Randle. There isn’t an “equal value”. What is the value of a guy that with Randle’s resume but is getting traded bc he is emotionally unstable and isn’t trusted to show up when it matters most? Idk, the Kings got Buddy Heild and a first for Cousins. I think Randle will fetch more then that but I don’t think “equal value” is a thing with him

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[still a fan]

That’s the problem with Randle. There isn’t an “equal value”. What is the value of a guy that with Randle’s resume but is getting traded bc he is emotionally unstable and isn’t trusted to show up when it matters most? Idk, the Kings got Buddy Heild and a first for Cousins. I think Randle will fetch more then that but I don’t think “equal value” is a thing with him

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

that isn't the end of the story with the trade, the value isn't that high, Casspi was a good player he went as well to NO, and NO had to take back Evans and Galloway to make the monies work, the pick was a good thing, a top 3 protected

And Realize how bad this turned out, they kept him for one full season and his value went down to signing with the Warriors for the mini MLE for all of 5.3M.

So if your trading for Randle the one example you gave comes with a *, which means be very careful of the bottom dropping out because NO wound up with absolutely nothing to show losing Heild and a pick.


Hence why when some ask what does equal mean, you won't find many good examples of getting value back that turned out positive for a head case player.

I think Randles highest value was after his 2nd year with the Knicks and I don't think it will ever reach that level in trade scenario again based on his personality traits and playoff performances.


I do know this although his value is down because of his brain farts and latest playoffs, it could sink even further if next year turns out anything like two seasons back, then the Knicks are screwed.

One could say sell high because i'm not sure it can go higher right now?

[still a fan]

NEW YORK’S FUTURE LIES IN RANDLE AND THIBODEAU
By Quentin Haynes | May 16, 2023

This is exactly how I feel, a couple of you want to argue and be homers about a situation, this is exactly where I'm at............lets repeat this before a couple take their own take and put words in my response, Thibs is a good coach!!! The question remains can he take us to the promise land and if Randle is here isn't that a major road block the way he enables and coach's with him on the roster?

The Title of the Thread is Randle and Thibs both need to go, so lets stay on topic, i've said all along both don't but probably one does........does that make Thibs not a good coach? Well you judge, if he's stubborn and lets a player's behavior go the same way again and again, I'd say he's part of the problem to this team being elite.

I hope the FO recognizes the issues as properly written below, we can all hope for Thibs and Randle to coexist and the team reap the rewards, but we can all sit and watch grass grow also:

If the playoffs have shown us anything, it’s that the New York Knicks will have to make decisions on the futures of Julius Randle and Tom Thibodeau, two people who could limit New York’s chances for contention in the near future.


With a season that included multiple successful winning streaks, a playoff appearance, and even a first-round playoff win, the New York Knicks finished their most successful season in almost a decade with more information on the path moving forward. Despite losing to the Miami Heat in six games, the Knicks showed some fight down the stretch, and the glass-half-full view is the team is finally a few steps ahead of being a true contender in the Eastern Conference.

But there is also a glass-half-empty view. The Cleveland Cavaliers were a perfect matchup for the Knicks – a team carried by two smaller guards and a defense built around two big men. The Cavaliers didn’t have much of a changeup with their rotation and faltered once their fastball went. Against the Miami Heat, led by a strong head coach in Eric Spoelstra, a superstar that elevates his game in Jimmy Butler, and a handful of role players who can operate on both sides of the ball, the Knicks looked overmatched schematically.


The ultimate question about the New York Knicks and their future goes back to where it starts – Tom Thibodeau and Julius Randle.

On a team where everything has the potential to go up, Randle and Thibodeau feel stagnant. RJ Barrett recovered strongly from the first two Cleveland games to have a solid performance to close out the series and moments during the Miami series. Immanuel Quickley struggled, but only just emerged as one of the best sixth men of the year and the defensive duo of Quentin Grimes and Mitchell Robinson just logged their first postseason appearances. There’s room for growth for all four players, with none of them over the age of 25 yet.

And their other in-prime starter, Jalen Brunson, is a star-level player. The first round showed Brunson’s strengths – attacking the middle of defenses and making teams who play with two bigs pay. The second round showed that Brunson is one of the best point guards in the conference with a 32-point, 11-assist performance in Game Four, 38 points, nine rebounds, and seven assists in Game Five, and a Game 6 for the ages. Brunson is a piece to build around for the long term as a second or third guy who can elevate your offense.



The questions about Randle and Thibodeau linger. Randle, named to his second all-NBA team, was a no-show in the Miami series, bringing up questions about what the Knicks should do with him. At 28 years old, Randle is in the midst of his prime and what you see is what you get – 20 points, 10 rebounds, somewhere between four and six assists a night, and if the shooting is legitimate, someone who has cut “bad shots” out his diet.

But you’re also getting someone who has had his run of the town throughout the last four seasons offensively, creating some potential problems if the Knicks, or another team, want to move him into a more defined role. Randle’s defensive intensity waxes and wanes throughout the season with his lowlights being that of a poor defender, and he’s a bit selfish as an offensive player, highlighted by his often holding the ball. When Carmelo Anthony held the ball and measured the defense, the ball was ultimately, in the hands of a hall-of-fame talent. When Randle does it, it can become plodding and often allows defenses to readjust. Throw on a lack of playoff success and you have a tough player to quantify value-wise.

And that concern bleeds over to Tom Thibodeau. Thibodeau was a top-three coach this season, made adjustments during the regular season and for various stretches at a time, and had the New York playing as both a top 10 and top 10 defense. The addition of Josh Hart allowed New York to develop a perfect rotation, while not giving up on players like Isaiah Hartenstein turned out to be wise as Hartenstien emerged as a pivotal bench piece.

But you can’t teach, respectfully, an old dog new tricks. Thibodeau never went small against the Heat, using guys like RJ Barrett and Josh Hart along with three shooters and one center. He went to the Barrett-Hart combination on the wing, which doesn’t do enough on either side of the ball to see many minutes together in the postseason.

There were adjustments made in the regular season, adjustments and sacrifices that were ultimately better for the team, but as the postseason suggests, that old Thibodeau philosophy, player usage, and substitution patterns are still there when it comes to moments where the light shines the brightest.

And ultimately, that’s the ultimate fork in the road for New York. Not the acquisition of the next star player on this roster, but rather, can you win with Julius Randle and can you win with Tom Thibodeau? Randle has produced like a top-20 player based on raw statistics and accolades in two of the last four seasons, but the intangibles suggest that he’s more of a number-three guy on a good team.

Thibodeau has a bit of a longer rope – he’s established a culture that has mirrored the city with defense first. He’s unlocked both Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle offensively, won the Coach of the Year award for taking the Knicks to the postseason two years ago, and quietly, has done a great job at elevating some of the team’s younger talent into prime positions. However, the failure to stick to his evolution could bring up questions as to whether the long-time coach could continue to adapt.

Even if RJ Barrett pockets this recent postseason stretch and takes a step forward, if Grimes, Quickley, and Robinson can perform at a plus level in the postseason, even if someone likes Miles “Deuce” McBride evolves into a rotation player, could those ceiling-raising moves cancel out the ceiling-limiting of Randle and Thibodeau? These are the questions Leon Rose will have to answer this offseason and while he shares relationships with both player and coach, he’ll ultimately have to make the best decision for the Knicks.

Despite the moments made this regular season and even the drips and drabs of the postseason success, the Knicks feel both close and far away from truly contending in the Eastern Conference. Making it to the playoffs with a young nucleus of talent should create a cause for celebration and winning a first-round series the way they did should inspire confidence. However, when you examine how the Knicks can take the next step forward, the credentials of Julius Randle and Tom Thibodeau come into question. Randle’s playoff struggles cast doubt on whether he could be a true top option on a playoff team, while Thibodeau’s hesitancy to change when it matters most could limit just how much more he wins in New York.

[Brooklyndave]

The players I want are all me valuable than Randle. Most are more valuable than Randle plus single FRP

Mikal Bridges
Siakam
OG
Lavine (Ewing made me)
Zion
Grant
Bane - if Utah implodes because Ja is too dumb for his own good.



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Bridges willnot be traded and in the rare possibility the Nets do trade him it will not be to the Knicks . You would need much more than Randle to get Zion from NO.

Doubt Lavine gets you past the first round if he even gets you to the playoffs at all. Not sure about OG , but I do like Siakam.

[Knicks Boogie]

Hey Knicks fans...

Neither Thibs or Randle are going anywhere, your wasting your breath. JB was a great addition that took the team to another level, now we need to try to keep the same core while adding another piece that demands a lot of attention on offense like Siakam, Towns or Lavine...

Embiid or Freak will cost too much and the team will have to take too many steps back to get one of them a la Melo.

[nycericanguy]

NEW YORK’S FUTURE LIES IN RANDLE AND THIBODEAU
By Quentin Haynes | May 16, 2023

This is exactly how I feel, a couple of you want to argue and be homers about a situation, this is exactly where I'm at............lets repeat this before a couple take their own take and put words in my response, Thibs is a good coach!!! The question remains can he take us to the promise land and if Randle is here isn't that a major road block the way he enables and coach's with him on the roster?

The Title of the Thread is Randle and Thibs both need to go, so lets stay on topic, i've said all along both don't but probably one does........does that make Thibs not a good coach? Well you judge, if he's stubborn and lets a player's behavior go the same way again and again, I'd say he's part of the problem to this team being elite.

I hope the FO recognizes the issues as properly written below, we can all hope for Thibs and Randle to coexist and the team reap the rewards, but we can all sit and watch grass grow also:

a fan author repeating the same old casual fan twitter narratives... what a shocker.

actual knick beat writers don't put this kind of stuff out.

[ewing]

Wally isn't bad-mouthing Thibs!

[D-Leethal]

NEW YORK’S FUTURE LIES IN RANDLE AND THIBODEAU
By Quentin Haynes | May 16, 2023

This is exactly how I feel, a couple of you want to argue and be homers about a situation, this is exactly where I'm at............lets repeat this before a couple take their own take and put words in my response, Thibs is a good coach!!! The question remains can he take us to the promise land and if Randle is here isn't that a major road block the way he enables and coach's with him on the roster?

The Title of the Thread is Randle and Thibs both need to go, so lets stay on topic, i've said all along both don't but probably one does........does that make Thibs not a good coach? Well you judge, if he's stubborn and lets a player's behavior go the same way again and again, I'd say he's part of the problem to this team being elite.

I hope the FO recognizes the issues as properly written below, we can all hope for Thibs and Randle to coexist and the team reap the rewards, but we can all sit and watch grass grow also:

Article is rather fair to be honest. No problems with it at all. I've said all along, if the Knicks decide to make some seismic changes to team identity including the trading of Randle and/or doing something different at the center position, I'm not opposed to getting a new coach to look at the next 5-7 years with. I think Thibs is getting old and I'm not a huge fan of coaches pushing 70, and I recognize Thibs has his way of playing that the current roster is built well for but he might not be the best guy for a different roster if we were to make some big changes.

That said, Thibs did nothing this year to be fired based on performance, and if we are gonna stay the course or make some small tweaks and largely run it back he earned another year.

[still a fan]

Wally isn't bad-mouthing Thibs!

lol

[nycericanguy]

grouping Randle and THibs together is silly, Thibs has been a winner everywhere he's gone, he gives 100% of his life to basketball for the past 30+ years. You can disagree with things he does but you can't question his knowledge or commitment.

same cannot be said for Randle, in fact he's the complete opposite in many regards.

Thibs has milked everything humanly possible from this roster, and made Randle better than anyone could have imagined.

that being said, if Thibs demands Randle stay here or else, then that's a different story. I'm a knick fan, not a player or coach fan, and I think it's best for the TEAM that we move on from Randle, and if they are tied at the hip then they can both go, but I haven't read or heard anything like that. I think Thibs would be more than fine building around Brunson and RJ and adding a 3rd star via trade.

[still a fan]

Article is rather fair to be honest. No problems with it at all. I've said all along, if the Knicks decide to make some seismic changes to team identity including the trading of Randle and/or doing something different at the center position, I'm not opposed to getting a new coach to look at the next 5-7 years with. I think Thibs is getting old and I'm not a huge fan of coaches pushing 70, and I recognize Thibs has his way of playing that the current roster is built well for but he might not be the best guy for a different roster if we were to make some big changes.

That said, Thibs did nothing this year to be fired based on performance, and if we are gonna stay the course or make some small tweaks and largely run it back he earned another year.

agreed but do you think that gets us to the second round next year running it back or even out of the second round?

or the every other year Randle show up and we get a lottery pick we will trade?

I personnally think the Brunson's would love Randle traded, just my opinion but some facial expressions I noticed looking right at Randle after some very stupid moves and the couple games I went to this year, it just didn't appear to me and everyone around me that there is a love affair between the two. I don't think Dad is a fan either, i've seen the head shake on the bench, that isn't good.

While Thibs has absolutely earned it, that don't mean it improves either. And i'm not sure changing the coach and keeping Randle makes it improve either.

I've been saying this I think we run back, our signing will be Hart, Fourn will be wrong and he will be on the roster come next season to hold him till the deadline, since Knicks will have paid 70% of his contract and his salary will be a great help in getting a player with picks and a young player or two.

I'm saddened by this because I think Obi will remain with his 14 min off the bench in his contract year, the Knicks are killing this kid for his next deal.
Rose well just for being nice guys if Knicks stand pact they just may pick up his contract and utilize that in a deadline trade as well, but it's logical for both if they just release him so he can be a FA and get to a team that wants him, sure at this stage and age he'll take 15.5m for being a cheerleader as well, he's not getting close to that anywhere. I think he's ranked 37th in PG's this FA.

[nycericanguy]

agreed but do you think that gets us to the second round next year running it back or even out of the second round?

or the every other year Randle show up and we get a lottery pick we will trade?

I personnally think the Brunson's would love Randle traded, just my opinion but some facial expressions I noticed looking right at Randle after some very stupid moves and the couple games I went to this year, it just didn't appear to me and everyone around me that there is a love affair between the two. I don't think Dad is a fan either, i've seen the head shake on the bench, that isn't good.

While Thibs has absolutely earned it, that don't mean it improves either. And i'm not sure changing the coach and keeping Randle makes it improve either.

I've been saying this I think we run back, our signing will be Hart, Fourn will be wrong and he will be on the roster come next season to hold him till the deadline, since Knicks will have paid 70% of his contract and his salary will be a great help in getting a player with picks and a young player or two.

I'm saddened by this because I think Obi will remain with his 14 min off the bench in his contract year, the Knicks are killing this kid for his next deal.
Rose well just for being nice guys if Knicks stand pact they just may pick up his contract and utilize that in a deadline trade as well, but it's logical for both if they just release him so he can be a FA and get to a team that wants him, sure at this stage and age he'll take 15.5m for being a cheerleader as well, he's not getting close to that anywhere. I think he's ranked 37th in PG's this FA.

probably not if we run it back, we overachieved and thats hard to do back to back years. I don't think ANY coach does. we made it to the final 8, and most of those final 8 teams had not one but TWO guys better than our #1.

[still a fan]

grouping Randle and THibs together is silly, Thibs has been a winner everywhere he's gone, he gives 100% of his life to basketball for the past 30+ years. You can disagree with things he does but you can't question his knowledge or commitment.

same cannot be said for Randle, in fact he's the complete opposite in many regards.

Thibs has milked everything humanly possible from this roster, and made Randle better than anyone could have imagined.

that being said, if Thibs demands Randle stay here or else, then that's a different story. I'm a knick fan, not a player or coach fan, and I think it's best for the TEAM that we move on from Randle, and if they are tied at the hip then they can both go, but I haven't read or heard anything like that. I think Thibs would be more than fine building around Brunson and RJ and adding a 3rd star via trade.

Please don't tell me you have not witnessed Randle getting special treatment that hurts this team? please don't tell all of us Randle should not have been sent home instead of rewarded and then he lied during post games about he shot bad but his defense was good?

This is part of coaching, you know coaching the players and making sure they are in line and making sure they show up for the second round of the playoffs.

As D said he earned another year, but at what expense, if the above continues and then what will your posts read if we have another 2021-2022 season, i'd guess the same as they did when it was going on?

[D-Leethal]

agreed but do you think that gets us to the second round next year running it back or even out of the second round?

or the every other year Randle show up and we get a lottery pick we will trade?

I personnally think the Brunson's would love Randle traded, just my opinion but some facial expressions I noticed looking right at Randle after some very stupid moves and the couple games I went to this year, it just didn't appear to me and everyone around me that there is a love affair between the two. I don't think Dad is a fan either, i've seen the head shake on the bench, that isn't good.

While Thibs has absolutely earned it, that don't mean it improves either. And i'm not sure changing the coach and keeping Randle makes it improve either.

I've been saying this I think we run back, our signing will be Hart, Fourn will be wrong and he will be on the roster come next season to hold him till the deadline, since Knicks will have paid 70% of his contract and his salary will be a great help in getting a player with picks and a young player or two.

I'm saddened by this because I think Obi will remain with his 14 min off the bench in his contract year, the Knicks are killing this kid for his next deal.
Rose well just for being nice guys if Knicks stand pact they just may pick up his contract and utilize that in a deadline trade as well, but it's logical for both if they just release him so he can be a FA and get to a team that wants him, sure at this stage and age he'll take 15.5m for being a cheerleader as well, he's not getting close to that anywhere. I think he's ranked 37th in PG's this FA.

I won't be thrilled if we run it back but the FO has shown they aren't gonna unload their chips for just anybody so if they decide to stay the course I see no reason to fire Thibs. Do we make it out of the first or second round by doing that? No idea. No one thought we would be in the position we were this year. Who knows.

I personally don't think another coach would do better than Thibs with this current, non shooting roster. Thibs is the only coach I know that can win games with such abysmal deep shooting. So keeping the roster in tact and changing the coach doesn't make us better IMO and I would say it has a good chance to make us a play-in exit team.