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  1. #91
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    As for statistics, here's one from 2015 which uses advanced data from 1997 on to measure a player's performance in the last 5 minutes of playoff games within 5 points of fewer.

    https://syndication.bleacherreport.c...emory.amp.html

    Guess who was #1? LeBron James... at that point, "nobody in the NBA had made more game-tying and go-ahead shots in the final 24 seconds of playoff games than LeBron, who is 7-16 on those shots. His 43.8% field goal on those clutch shots ranks the best in the NBA among players with at least 10 attempts. The league average is 28.3% on those shots."

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Yes I did. Notice how I said highest impact and best players and not his teams have the best record as a result. There is no contradiction or inconsistency there, I was speaking about his individual performance, not a measure of the teamís achievement.

    Was that your attempt at a gotcha moment? That was more pathetic than LeBronís last shot %..
    How do you define and measure "highest impact" in the clutch (IE: Final 1-2 minutes of close margin games specifically)? There's no stats to account for anything other than mainly scoring. There's no tracking data, there's no VORP comparisons, no filtering of garbage-time baskets, none of that.

    Just the simplest example, if we know giving the opponent free throws in the final minutes of the clutch is significant and I can't even track and compare how many times a player created a foul situation, how does one come to a define what constitutes "highest impact" play?

    At least "winning plays" is a more reasonable framework, but you're apparently very specific with your chosen terms.

    Good try attempting to reposition a BS argument though.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    How do you define and measure "highest impact" in the clutch (IE: Final 1-2 minutes of close margin games specifically)? There's no stats to account for anything other than mainly scoring. There's no tracking data, there's no VORP comparisons, no filtering of garbage-time baskets, none of that.

    Just the simplest example, if we know giving the opponent free throws in the final minutes of the clutch is significant and I can't even track and compare how many times a player created a foul situation, how does one come to a define what constitutes "highest impact" play?

    At least "winning plays" is a more reasonable framework, but you're apparently very specific with your chosen terms.

    Good try attempting to reposition a BS argument though.
    Well I literally posted an article that has some statistics on his late game performance, so quite obviously you're contention there are none is, to use your word, BS.

    But let's just get how much you hate LeBron out in the open:

    Do you think LeBron plays well in the clutch (as you defined it, Final 1-2 minutes of close margin games)? Where do you generally rank him all-time a clutch performer?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well I literally posted an article that has some statistics on his late game performance, so quite obviously you're contention there are none is, to use your word, BS.

    But let's just get how much you hate LeBron out in the open:

    Do you think LeBron plays well in the clutch (as you defined it, Final 1-2 minutes of close margin games)? Where do you generally rank him all-time a clutch performer?
    You posted an article from 2015 that framed the question against playoff performances only and looked at the "clutch" by the traditional definition of close games in the last 5 minutes.

    We all know that games can be close with 5 minutes remaining and be out of reach with 3 minutes remaining. We've also seen overtime rounds that weren't close shortly after the tip-off.

    We posted current proof showing all games, not just up to 2015, not just playoffs, but a comprehensive career list that shows LeBron is not good at making shots with the game literally on the line (lose/go ahead/win). He's literally the worst shot-maker in these situations.

    Which source of truth are we to believe? Both sources are indeed factual, that's not for dispute, but instead I ask, which paints the more accurate picture?

    Ultimately, we'll all believe the source of truth that supports our confirmation bias.

    But I'll say that I'm certainly more correct and accurate than you in stating that there is extremely limited data (let's basically call it none) demonstrating clutch impact outside of scoring/shot-making in the clutch. So, to say a player makes "highest impact" plays is nearly completely subjective and not supported by objective facts. Fouls outside of non-take fouls, assist rates, hockey assist rates, free throw rates, defensive metrics, block rates, steal rates, charge drawn rates, turnover rates, adjustment for non-garbage makes, PER/VORP/etc drilled down to minutes-by-minute segments of the clutch, all these sorts of things are largely unavailable.

    What I think about LeBron isn't really important. But my 2 cents opinion is the eye test says he's good but not the best.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    You posted an article from 2015 that framed the question against playoff performances only and looked at the "clutch" by the traditional definition of close games in the last 5 minutes.

    We all know that games can be close with 5 minutes remaining and be out of reach with 3 minutes remaining. We've also seen overtime rounds that weren't close shortly after the tip-off.

    We posted current proof showing all games, not just up to 2015, not just playoffs, but a comprehensive career list that shows LeBron is not good at making shots with the game literally on the line (lose/go ahead/win). He's literally the worst shot-maker in these situations.

    Which source of truth are we to believe? Both sources are indeed factual, that's not for dispute, but instead I ask, which paints the more accurate picture?

    Ultimately, we'll all believe the source of truth that supports our confirmation bias.

    But I'll say that I'm certainly more correct and accurate than you in stating that there is extremely limited data (let's basically call it none) demonstrating clutch impact outside of scoring/shot-making in the clutch. So, to say a player makes "highest impact" plays is nearly completely subjective and not supported by objective facts. Fouls outside of non-take fouls, assist rates, hockey assist rates, free throw rates, defensive metrics, block rates, steal rates, charge drawn rates, turnover rates, adjustment for non-garbage makes, PER/VORP/etc drilled down to minutes-by-minute segments of the clutch, all these sorts of things are largely unavailable.

    What I think about LeBron isn't really important. But my 2 cents opinion is the eye test says he's good but not the best.
    First Bolded: We are talking about clutch moments, I think most would agree the playoffs are more important than the regular season in that regard.

    Second Bolded: Yes, and when LeBron plays so well with 5 minutes left that the team is up handedly with 3, why exactly would you penalize him for that?

    Third Bolded: Even the playoff only to 2015 sample size I provided is vastly more actual game time than what you provided. In terms of whose data measures more of the time he spent on the court in clutch situations, it is unquestionably mine.

    Fourth Bolded: Only you would claim you are right in the very sentence admitting you were wrongÖ

    Fifth Bolded: Of course itís important. Even you say you believe heís good in the clutch. So going back to you asking, which paints a more accurate picture. Your stat says heís the worst clutch performer ever and even you donít buy that BS.
    Last edited by valade16; 03-24-2023 at 04:35 AM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: We are talking about clutch moments, I think most would agree the playoffs are more important than the regular season in that regard.

    Second Bolded: Yes, and when LeBron plays so well with 5 minutes left that the team is up handedly with 3, why exactly would you penalize him for that?

    Third Bolded: Even the playoff only to 2015 sample size I provided is vastly more actual game time than what you provided. In terms of whose data measures more of the time he spent on the court in clutch situations, it is unquestionably mine.

    Fourth Bolded: Only you would claim you are right in the very sentence admitting you were wrongÖ

    Fifth Bolded: Of course itís important. Even you say you believe heís good in the clutch. So going back to you asking, which paints a more accurate picture. Your stat says heís the worst clutch performer ever and even you donít buy that BS.
    You're not thinking about some things reasonably. If a game is not close with 3 minutes remaining, why do I care about your garbage time makes?

    Hurray! You're surely "carrying your team back in this" by hitting that 2 point jumper with your team down by 14. You're so clutch!

    I've seen a lot of 5 point games with 5 minutes remaining become a 14 point game because over the next 2 minutes the other team bombed in three 3pters.

    Point margin and proximity to the end of the game increases pressure and the importance of made baskets, decreased turnovers, increased defensive stops, made free throws, assists of teammates, etc.

    This is why I said, true clutch stats are very lacking. We can't even drill down minute-by-minute based on point margin.

    Where did I claim that LeBron was the worst performer in the clutch by the way? Where this all started was asking whether the compilation of plays was comprehensive, to which I said probably, and showed stats that align with him being one of the worst shot makers with the game on the line in a win/go-ahead/lose moment. You're still trying to reposition the debate.

    When it gets down the the 2 cents argument, I'm just saying overall (not just final shots, overall), I think he's a pretty good contributor, but not the best regardless of what that 2015 article attempted to show and not the worst like the twitter compilation did.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    You're not thinking about some things reasonably. If a game is not close with 3 minutes remaining, why do I care about your garbage time makes?

    Hurray! You're surely "carrying your team back in this" by hitting that 2 point jumper with your team down by 14. You're so clutch!

    I've seen a lot of 5 point games with 5 minutes remaining become a 14 point game because over the next 2 minutes the other team bombed in three 3pters.

    Point margin and proximity to the end of the game increases pressure and the importance of made baskets, decreased turnovers, increased defensive stops, made free throws, assists of teammates, etc.

    This is why I said, true clutch stats are very lacking. We can't even drill down minute-by-minute based on point margin.

    Where did I claim that LeBron was the worst performer in the clutch by the way? Where this all started was asking whether the compilation of plays was comprehensive, to which I said probably, and showed stats that align with him being one of the worst shot makers with the game on the line in a win/go-ahead/lose moment. You're still trying to reposition the debate.

    When it gets down the the 2 cents argument, I'm just saying overall (not just final shots, overall), I think he's a pretty good contributor, but not the best regardless of what that 2015 article attempted to show and not the worst like the twitter compilation did.
    It is telling that your default assumption of games that are close at 5 mins and become blowouts at 3 for LeBron is that he is the one getting blown out. Tell me honestly, which scenario is more likely over the course of his career, that his team ends up losing and getting blown out or that it ends up winning in a blowout?Ö

    To be clear: thatís is not where this started. It started with me saying the reason LeBron is talked about is because people seem to talk about him even when heís not playing, to which you posted the video. It had absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter, so you accusing me of trying to reposition the debate is rich.

    And again, even you donít buy the Twitter compilations BS. Even you believe heís a good contributor. One has to wonder then, outside of taking a pointless shot at LeBron you donít even believe, why you even posted the video at allÖ
    Last edited by valade16; 03-24-2023 at 11:00 AM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    It is telling that your default assumption of games that are close at 5 mins and become blowouts at 3 for LeBron is that he is the one getting blown out. Tell me honestly, which scenario is more likely over the course of his career, that his team ends up losing and getting blown out or that it ends up winning in a blowout?Ö

    To be clear: thatís is not where this started. It started with me saying the reason LeBron is talked about is because people seem to talk about him even when heís not playing, to which you posted the video. It had absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter, so you accusing me of trying to reposition the debate is rich.

    And again, even you donít buy the Twitter compilations BS. Even you believe heís a good contributor. One has to wonder then, outside of taking a pointless shot at LeBron you donít even believe, why you even posted the video at allÖ
    You're doing a great job talking in circles about subjects not relatable, and repositioning arguments never made.

    You talked about people judging LeBron on his contribution towards team results when he's not even playing, I responded with a compilation of exactly one of the ways he's contributed towards his team's results in close opportunities to move the needle much higher than a .500 team.

    You mentioned whether it's comprehensive of every single moment in the last two year's, I responded with a completely comprehensive view of his career in those moments illustrating the video's accuracy.

    You mentioned that I'm judging LeBron harshly despite a 2015 article and that there are "highest impact" plays that contribute outside of simply scoring, and I responded by somewhat agreeing with your premise that he delivers value outside of shot-making but mentioned there is not enough data to quantify winning plays in the clutch outside of shot-making, and by somewhat rejecting the 2015 portrayal.

    You can keep making up your own revisionist history on what was communicated here and trying to reposition what points were refuted, but it's all documented above.

  9. #99
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    And the assumption is NOT default nor did I ever make it seem that way. The example was simply used to illustrate the blind spots and lack of visibility in clutch stats, something that you still haven't acknowledged despite it being something that's factual and readily apparent if you're detailed in trying to analyze players.

    Another example of trying to reposition the argument uselessly.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    You're doing a great job talking in circles about subjects not relatable, and repositioning arguments never made.

    You talked about people judging LeBron on his contribution towards team results when he's not even playing, I responded with a compilation of exactly one of the ways he's contributed towards his team's results in close opportunities to move the needle much higher than a .500 team.

    You mentioned whether it's comprehensive of every single moment in the last two year's, I responded with a completely comprehensive view of his career in those moments illustrating the video's accuracy.

    You mentioned that I'm judging LeBron harshly despite a 2015 article and that there are "highest impact" plays that contribute outside of simply scoring, and I responded by somewhat agreeing with your premise that he delivers value outside of shot-making but mentioned there is not enough data to quantify winning plays in the clutch outside of shot-making, and by somewhat rejecting the 2015 portrayal.

    You can keep making up your own revisionist history on what was communicated here and trying to reposition what points were refuted, but it's all documented above.
    Not relatable and repositioning arguments? That is absolutely rich coming from the guy who decided to post about LeBron when my point was the reason he gets talked about so much is haters like you won't stop bringing him up when he's not even playing. And your response is to talk about him when he's not playing. I genuinely can't tell if you're a parody of yourself at this point or you're just that out of touch.

    Then you posted a video which only showed the negative plays. I asked if it was comprehensive because of course it wasn't. You then posted a stat of only the final shot throughout his entire career. The fact you STILL are arguing that his performance in those shots would make a demosntrable impact on his teams wins or losses shows you truly, genuinely don't understand what you're talking about.

    I agree with you on one thing, everything is documented above. And anyone reading it will know what was communicated: you hate LeBron and even you don't buy your own BS about him not being a clutch performer.
    Last edited by valade16; 03-24-2023 at 01:04 PM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    And the assumption is NOT default nor did I ever make it seem that way. The example was simply used to illustrate the blind spots and lack of visibility in clutch stats, something that you still haven't acknowledged despite it being something that's factual and readily apparent if you're detailed in trying to analyze players.

    Another example of trying to reposition the argument uselessly.
    I haven't acknowledged it because it's not true. The very site where you got that list (StatMuse) has many of the exact stats you're saying don't exist.

    Regardless, you agree he's a good clutch player despite the video and list you showed. If even you don't buy what you're selling, why should I?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    And anyone reading it will know what was communicated: you hate LeBron and even you don't buy your own BS about him not being a clutch performer.
    Yes, I irrationally hate LeBron, yet convey that he's pretty good overall in the clutch. Double negative in the same thought.

    Do you even think before you post? The emotion and in-your-feelings are ooozing out of your posts. You're not logical.

    Have a good Friday, broham.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Yes, I irrationally hate LeBron, yet convey that he's pretty good overall in the clutch. Double negative in the same thought.

    Do you even think before you post? The emotion and in-your-feelings are ooozing out of your posts. You're not logical.

    Have a good Friday, broham.
    First, saying heís good in the clutch and hating LeBron are not mutually exclusive.

    Second, You only conveyed he was good in the clutch after you posted clips arguing he wasnít and I forced you to admit even you donít believe what you post.

    Third, Yes I think before I post. One of us has to.

    Fourth, me emotional? Iím not the one getting upset because they were called out for posting something irrelevant simply to hate on LeBron.
    Last edited by valade16; 03-24-2023 at 01:47 PM.

  14. #104
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    ESPN literally has late game statistics going back to 1997 where you can filter playersí stats by the last two minutes of games within 5 points:

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/cl...dir=A&sort=FGA

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