Game18 The indeed improved Lakers @ None existent Spurs 11/26/22 at 5:00 pm

[ldawg]

If you payed attention this year is that he is bulkier and stronger this year. He bullies people. Handled Jokic pretty well. He used to get pushed around by him. Also he has no outside shot so by default he should play the 5. Also his free throw percentage is up and if you play inside more than the perimeter then you get more free throw attempts, like he is getting. He isn’t chasing guys on the perimeter anymore so he doesn’t use as much energy on defense. He uses his best asset. His shot blocking ability and his quickness. Why he got five blocks and five steals in a game recently. He made Poetl look like a scrub. If our team was top two in the West, they would be talking about MVP candidate.

this was the case the moment he played with Lakers. The only Reason he did not play it is because he did not want to. The reason i list those guys is they were PF who moved up to center. They were not hulks. You still have the big center center playing limited minutes. Its not his new found strength.

Remember Pau/Bynum vs Pau/Odom?

[Big Moves03]

My question to you would be…what is the difference between high Usage% and high ball dominance?

Ball dominant means you have the ball a lot. High usage just means that the play ended with the ball in a players hand and resulted in either a shot, a free throw attempt, or a turnover. The downside of being ball dominant is that it usually kills any rhythm and takes others out of the offense and I think that's why it's so hard to win at a high level playing that style.

[Big Moves03]

[Big Moves03]

Not being as ball dominat as another dont mean your not ball dominat. All the players i list the offence of thier team revolved heavily on them and most of them scoring and playmaking. Yes kobe, mj and shaq played in the triangle but they were the ones with the ball majority of the time and the triangle was Taylor for them. Moments there were also high on iso plays. As for kidd, Nash, magic, Ai etc they pretty much ran the show just as lebron did. Not much different. These player did not play in a equal Opportunity system as Spurs or Pistons. So to say lebron is the only ball dominant player to win on the highest level i dont feel is true. Lebron size and skills is what made him able to play like that. He is not MJ or Majic but he is a little of both.

Curry is the only pg his size to win titles without an allstar big man. Before it was done the talk was you cant win with a player who shoot to many 3s because they are lower perentage shot and you can not win like that. This is an example of saying you cant win like that on the highest level and only curry can won like that.

You really cannot say you cant win with a certain style when they all produce titles. Lebron 4, curry 4, kobe 5, mj 6, duncan 5, wade 3.

I can also flip that less ball dominant stars dont win on the highest level. If you looking at players who dominated.

No, what you are referring to is guys who are focal points of the offense, but that is a different thing. We can say that only one guy has played a certain way and won and literally no one else has been able to do it...and hence that approach is probably not very useful and we have lots of evidence for it

[Big Moves03]

usage % is how many plays END with the ball in your hand. Ball dominance is how many seconds of the team's total game possessions the ball is under the control of one player. Embiid's usage% this year is 37.9% and Harden's is 26.2%, but nobody reasonable would say Embiid is more ball dominant than Harden. Curry's usage% is 31% and Draymond's is 12% but Draymond has the ball more than Curry does and nobody reasonable would say Curry dominates the ball with the Warriors considering so much of his scoring comes from movement without the ball.

[Scoots]

Well if a girl is stroking me all night, then it’s high usage. If she is playing with my nuts all night, then it’s ball dominance.

Get-ur-done

Usage ends with the shot.

[Scoots]

Point is all players do not have the same skill set and they play different roles for their team. Why would a center have the ball more than the PG? Lebron skill allow him to direct Kobe skills did not since he was more incline to score. So it would make sense Lebron to have the ball more. In that aspect its silly.

So did you not understand the difference between ball dominance and usage %?

[ldawg]

No, what you are referring to is guys who are focal points of the offense, but that is a different thing. We can say that only one guy has played a certain way and won and literally no one else has been able to do it...and hence that approach is probably not very useful and we have lots of evidence for it

Hint no one won like Curry did,
No one won like MJ did well maybe kobe
no one won like Shaq did
No one won like Lebron did
No one won like Magic did

not sure of the importance?

No i am talking about guys who have the ball and their teammates are spectators. With the exception of few many of these guys that take the bulk of the shots and they are the ones that created that shot. Its a tin line between usage and ball dominance. It also have guys once the ball hit their hands its sticks.

your talking 1 metric and running with it and it dont work like that. What other metrics you use like pace, attempts, type of shot, rebounds, percentages, etc? How long have they been tracking to come to a conclusion this have never been done? when did they start tracking?

[ldawg]

8-9 years ago is not a very long time.

[Scoots]

Hint no one won like Curry did,
No one won like MJ did well maybe kobe
no one won like Shaq did
No one won like Lebron did
No one won like Magic did

not sure of the importance?

No i am talking about guys who have the ball and their teammates are spectators. With the exception of few many of these guys that take the bulk of the shots and they are the ones that created that shot. Its a tin line between usage and ball dominance. It also have guys once the ball hit their hands its sticks.

your talking 1 metric and running with it and it dont work like that. What other metrics you use like pace, attempts, type of shot, rebounds, percentages, etc? How long have they been tracking to come to a conclusion this have never been done? when did they start tracking?

Draymond Green is the most ball dominant player on the Warriors with a usage of 12%, Curry does most of his work without the ball and has a usage of 31%. It's not a thin line. What we were talking about is players who are ball dominant AND high usage being very rare still standing at the end of the season.

Jokic is a ball dominant center, Shaq and Wilt were not.

[ldawg]

Draymond Green is the most ball dominant player on the Warriors with a usage of 12%, Curry does most of his work without the ball and has a usage of 31%. It's not a thin line. What we were talking about is players who are ball dominant AND high usage being very rare still standing at the end of the season.

Jokic is a ball dominant center, Shaq and Wilt were not.

GSW do not play traditional Ball. Curry is not heavy on ISO plays he has the skills to come off screens catch and shoot, one of the quickest release in history. They play at a fast pace mean they dont dibble a whole ton in the shot clock. They keep the ball moving. Its almost an equal opportunity system.. not come down court get in offense find the star player. Heavy ISO players were very common and they pound the air out the ball.

IN short GSW take quick early shots.

[Scoots]

GSW do not play traditional Ball. Curry is not heavy on ISO plays he has the skills to come off screens catch and shoot, one of the quickest release in history. They play at a fast pace mean they dont dibble a whole ton in the shot clock. They keep the ball moving. Its almost an equal opportunity system.. not come down court get in offense find the star player. Heavy ISO players were very common and they pound the air out the ball.

IN short GSW take quick early shots.

The Warriors play VERY traditional, what they don't play is the way the modern game is mostly played.

The point was that Curry IS a high usage player but is not ball dominant. High usage and ball dominance are not separated by "a thin line", they are totally different.

I used the Warriors because they are a convenient example of ball dominance and usage not being the same, but thank you for doing a poor job describing the Warriors offense. The Warriors actually run more sets than any other team in the NBA, they run part of the Triangle, some Princeton, a bunch of Euro variations, they almost certainly have the most complex offense in the NBA.

[ldawg]

The Warriors play VERY traditional, what they don't play is the way the modern game is mostly played.

The point was that Curry IS a high usage player but is not ball dominant. High usage and ball dominance are not separated by "a thin line", they are totally different.

I used the Warriors because they are a convenient example of ball dominance and usage not being the same, but thank you for doing a poor job describing the Warriors offense. The Warriors actually run more sets than any other team in the NBA, they run part of the Triangle, some Princeton, a bunch of Euro variations, they almost certainly have the most complex offense in the NBA.

Gsw plays nothing Like Shaq and Kobe did not even close.

I did not Say Curry was ball dominant What i said was no one won like he did. He is the only player his size to to win without a allstar big man.

The whole idea it was not essential to win with a certain style. And i list a number of players that did not play in the same fashion.

Meaning it have many ways to win and you will lean towards your star player.

It said that Lebron was the only player to do that but i think its not a true statement. Kobe and MJ for one were very ball dominant and were king of ISO. Even Shaq you give him the ball clear out and he goes to work. Obvious he wont bring the ball down the court but once it got there it was sure to find him where he will register the bulk of the team points and no fisher Kobe did not create for him. Then to flip Lebron and wade then KG and Paul. the idea is very very flawed since it have a number of teams that won with ball dominant players.

In a very very short story Lakers won with two ball dominant Players who often had dispute over the ball. Who is the most ball dominant was not the question. 7' feet tall vs 7'1 both very tall people says the 4' man.

[WhiteShadow42]

So did you not understand the difference between ball dominance and usage %?

I thought I explained clearly.

[ldawg]

I thought I explained clearly.

What is the difference between chewing and eating one is you swallow what you chewed?