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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Missouri
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    99,110
    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Maybe Iím seeing something different than everyone else or maybe Iíve been so indoctrinated by NFL officiating but seemed a clear no catch to me. I never doubted that theyíd overturn it. I was more annoyed with the missed facemask on the play against Mac JonesÖ not that it was some egregious or malicious play but it was just incredibly blatant and something that they normally call religiously. But whatever, they let MIN go up and down the field, stalled on offense in key spots, committed back breaking special teams miscues. Our red zone offense is downright pathetic so weíd probably end up with a field goal anyway if they call the facemask.

    So much chatter about a play that was a 4 point difference (TD vs FG) in a game that was decided by 3 points. I guess maybe Kirk Cousins would have field more pressure or whatever down 4 vs tied, but MIN has crushed it in 1 score games this year. I have no more faith that our offense goes down the field if only down 3 on the last drive vs down 7.

    The Pats just donít have any playmakers on that team. Stevenson looks like he will be at that level one day and Judon has the gaudy sack totals to get him there (all around game isnít as great though), but there isnít another player on the team that is a serious pro bowl talent, never mind an all pro. Their high end talent has to be one of the worst teams in the league. Usually even the worst teams in the league have some amount of great players. The Pats have basically none.

    When you get in those close games against good teams, sometimes itís just as simple as your guy needs to make a play that heís not supposed to. I go back to last years playoff game against the Bills on that early drive where Jordan Poyer stopped them from tying it early with an unbelievable play to cover basically half the field and pick it off in the end zone to really shut us down early from even having a shot. Jefferson last night made a few ridiculous catches that you just have to shake your head at. Against the Ravens earlier this year the Pats played probably their best game for 3 quarters before Lamar Jackson just single handedly ran through them in the 4th. The Pats just donít have any/many options for guys who can give you plays like that.
    It doesnít help that max sucks.

    Henry and Smith are zero factors and shouldnít be.

    Agholor should be at least decent in that offense but without a qb itís tough.


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  2. #122
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    15,686
    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Maybe Iím seeing something different than everyone else or maybe Iíve been so indoctrinated by NFL officiating but seemed a clear no catch to me. I never doubted that theyíd overturn it. I was more annoyed with the missed facemask on the play against Mac JonesÖ not that it was some egregious or malicious play but it was just incredibly blatant and something that they normally call religiously. But whatever, they let MIN go up and down the field, stalled on offense in key spots, committed back breaking special teams miscues. Our red zone offense is downright pathetic so weíd probably end up with a field goal anyway if they call the facemask.

    So much chatter about a play that was a 4 point difference (TD vs FG) in a game that was decided by 3 points. I guess maybe Kirk Cousins would have field more pressure or whatever down 4 vs tied, but MIN has crushed it in 1 score games this year. I have no more faith that our offense goes down the field if only down 3 on the last drive vs down 7.

    The Pats just donít have any playmakers on that team. Stevenson looks like he will be at that level one day and Judon has the gaudy sack totals to get him there (all around game isnít as great though), but there isnít another player on the team that is a serious pro bowl talent, never mind an all pro. Their high end talent has to be one of the worst teams in the league. Usually even the worst teams in the league have some amount of great players. The Pats have basically none.

    When you get in those close games against good teams, sometimes itís just as simple as your guy needs to make a play that heís not supposed to. I go back to last years playoff game against the Bills on that early drive where Jordan Poyer stopped them from tying it early with an unbelievable play to cover basically half the field and pick it off in the end zone to really shut us down early from even having a shot. Jefferson last night made a few ridiculous catches that you just have to shake your head at. Against the Ravens earlier this year the Pats played probably their best game for 3 quarters before Lamar Jackson just single handedly ran through them in the 4th. The Pats just donít have any/many options for guys who can give you plays like that.
    I dunno I thought it was a catch based on the newer rules, but the old rules (pre-2018ish?) that would've for sure been incomplete. It's all so hard to track and they were supposed to simplify the rule but have managed to make it even less clear. It really should be as simple as control the ball + 2 feet + survive the ground or inital control of the ball + 2 feet + football move (i.e. Dez, James, Henry)

    That said, regarding the Pats playmakers, I don't think it's fair to assess most of those guys considering they've performed elsewhere. I think it's purely a Pats problem rather than them individually. What has happened to Henry since leaving LAC (and actually being relatively healthy) is a shame; same for Smith and Agholor honestly. I have no clue what Bill and his offensive coaches are thinking but it's like they have a bunch of squares that they're trying to beat into round holes that simply don't fit.
    Last edited by manbearchef; 11-26-2022 at 01:35 PM.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    5,886
    Wasnt a catch


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  4. #124
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    35,797
    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I dunno I thought it was a catch based on the newer rules, but the old rules (pre-2018ish?) that would've for sure been incomplete. It's all so hard to track and they were supposed to simplify the rule but have managed to make it even less clear. It really should be as simple as control the ball + 2 feet + survive the ground or inital control of the ball + 2 feet + football move (i.e. Dez, James, Henry)

    That said, regarding the Pats playmakers, I don't think it's fair to assess most of those guys considering they've performed elsewhere. I think it's purely a Pats problem rather than them individually. What has happened to Henry since leaving LAC (and actually being relatively healthy) is a shame; same for Smith and Agholor honestly. I have no clue what Bill and his offensive coaches are thinking but it's like they have a bunch of squares that they're trying to beat into round holes that simply don't fit.
    All of them have been productive but as complimentary players. I have no real issue with any of them individually, but it goes back to my point about locking top talent. Whoever you consider their ď#1 receiverĒ is easily one of the worst in the NFL if you evaluate through that lense. Whoever you consider the ďnumber 2Ē is among the weakest as well. They have great, great depth through #3 on down, amongst the best in the league IMO, but when the #1 and #2 donít require any extra defensive attention your #3 and #4 lose the favorable matchups that you would typically get in those spots.

    Neither Henry nor Jonnu Smith ever ranked higher than 3rd on their old teams in receiving yards (and prorating yards for games missed would not have changed that standing). Agholor in the one Vegas year was second in yards, otherwise has never been higher than third. Parker was the top option for those bad early Flores Miami teams that sucked, but heís had numerous injuries since. Bourne was an after thought in San Francisco. Meyers has been NES receiving leader but only because itís a part of this group with no legit leader.

    Last year that group worked because you had a competent offensive coordinator. McDaniels is able to come up with good play designs and attack weaknesses of a defense to scheme guys into favorable situations. None of NEís guys are good enough to week-in-and-week-out pot big numbers but he was able

    Patricia is beyond under qualified as an offensive coordinator. Every game thereís multiple plays with receivers running routes next to each other/horrible spacing. Route concepts and play design arenít advanced enough to get the caliber of players we have open vs extra defensive attention.

    And of course Mac being limited as a QB plays into it as well. He isnít able to consistently complete passes into tight windows or throw guys open. So the issue is further compounded.

    Thatís my issue with the ďweaponsĒ group we have. Itís not so much about any of them individually - I like them all and think itís one of the deeper groups in the league - but to play with such a weak depth chart at the TOP just puts undue stress on everything else. You need brilliant offensive coaching and elite QB play to be successful with that type of weapons list. And even if you get the coaching, without elite QB play thereís a ceiling on how high you can ever go like we saw last year with McDaniels.

    Obviously they need to get a real OC this year. And Iíd love to get an elite QB but that doesnít grow on trees. So just as a matter of practicality they need to invest in the top of their weapons depth chart because you need a guy who commands some extra defensive attention so guys elsewhere have some favorable matchups.

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