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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Day and clown, Please understand, I am not anti youth at all, I am pro winning....soon! I see the window closing and feel waiting on rooks to mature simply adds to the timeline. Imo. a Boegerts, Turner, Correa, Candelario or J Turner (to name a few) accelerate the process and undoubtedly make the Yankees a better and stronger team NOW.

    You both alluded to and enumerate the current vets on the roster. Imo they are getting a bit long in the tooth, they are vets but simply old imo. JD is worthless save for his glove. DJ, who I love, has his best days behind him. Injuries have taken a toll and may continue to plague him. At one time maybe the best 2B in the game is now a mere shadow of his former self. The one "young" vet I feel worthy, Torres, you both want to ship out in a heartbeat.

    I am not suggesting aging old vets at every position. I am suggesting young, experienced vets with post season history at key positions. I feel SS maybe the most important position of need. I like Bader and Benintendi who I consider young vets. To be clear, I am not suggesting a roster littered with JD's. Age is not the issue, experience is, the time required to gel is, post season experience and performing in pressure situ are. The timeline to a WS ring is, imo, the most important criteria.

    Clown, it isn't buying a title. It's maximizing an opportunity. Attracting and signing the best available talent. At one time the Yankees did it better than most. Before you mention the core 4 and Bernie realize that was a moment in time that the Yankees as an organization hasn't come close to replicating. They have failed to produce that level of talent since. Also keep in mind they always supplemented the core with key FA's, Cone, Matsui, Mussina, CC , Teixeira to name a few.

    I am getting old. Older by the day. All I ask is another ring before I cash in the chips. The spects extend the timeline, maybe a bit too far for me.

    ps. Day, IKF and JD are NOT what I consider smart veteran moves. They are NOT the players I am alluding to. I want young guys with experience, but not green spects that may take years to develop at the ML level.
    I take strong issue with the bolded. I have said, multiple times, I have no problem shipping out Torres if it nets a young, very good pitcher or young, very good position player. Torres should not be moved for a middle tier player pitcher.

    I also believe if you want to change the culture of the team, someone needs to insert a foot into his arse and do it repeatedly. To me, hicks and Torres are bad clubhouse guys. You can live with one of them but not both. Torres still has the chance to change. Hicks does not.



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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    I take strong issue with the bolded. I have said, multiple times, I have no problem shipping out Torres if it nets a young, very good pitcher or young, very good position player. Torres should not be moved for a middle tier player pitcher.

    I also believe if you want to change the culture of the team, someone needs to insert a foot into his arse and do it repeatedly. To me, hicks and Torres are bad clubhouse guys. You can live with one of them but not both. Torres still has the chance to change. Hicks does not.
    Apologies. My language was cumbersome. I didn't mean to suggest shipping him at any cost, but simply he seems to be at the top of the list of players to be moved. I tend to view him as a keeper and a player who can be part of a core. Still young and capable.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Apologies. My language was cumbersome. I didn't mean to suggest shipping him at any cost, but simply he seems to be at the top of the list of players to be moved. I tend to view him as a keeper and a player who can be part of a core. Still young and capable.

    No worries!!!!!
    I agree with the bolded, largely because of sentence that follows it. He's literally the only player on the team with that type of value. It's unfortunate because it means he's easy to move. If he ends up a Yankee, I will be fine.



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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    No worries!!!!!
    I agree with the bolded, largely because of sentence that follows it. He's literally the only player on the team with that type of value. It's unfortunate because it means he's easy to move. If he ends up a Yankee, I will be fine.
    I'm not. Which version of Torres are we getting? the guy from his 1st 2yrs doesn't exist anymore ( largely due to the the juiced ball and maybe a buzzer) So are we getting the guy from 20-21 or last yr? He's not particularly fast to exploit the new rules next yr. Are we getting the GG caliber defender we have seen flashes of at 2nd or the guy who forgets how many outs there are and throws to the wrong bag?

    Torres has zero positional flexibility. If he could play 3rd, I'd be far more inclined to keep him

    Torres and Volpe are very similar players tools, build and positionally. The difference Volpe seem to make at leaast 1 play a day, where you say, how the hell did he make that play. With Torres it's 1-2 times a game i find my self saying how in the hell did he eff that up. Volpe has superior range, speed and you will never, ever think the kid is dogging it or taking plays off.

    I have been on record for 2yrs that this group of specs coming ( Volpe, Peraza and Dom) are different from the specs we've seen come up and struggle or fall off the map. I'm the spec guy, I get that, but IMO those kids are going to be absolute studs.. I 100% will live or die on that hill for those 3.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I'm not. Which version of Torres are we getting? the guy from his 1st 2yrs doesn't exist anymore ( largely due to the the juiced ball and maybe a buzzer) So are we getting the guy from 20-21 or last yr? He's not particularly fast to exploit the new rules next yr. Are we getting the GG caliber defender we have seen flashes of at 2nd or the guy who forgets how many outs there are and throws to the wrong bag?

    Torres has zero positional flexibility. If he could play 3rd, I'd be far more inclined to keep him

    Torres and Volpe are very similar players tools, build and positionally. The difference Volpe seem to make at leaast 1 play a day, where you say, how the hell did he make that play. With Torres it's 1-2 times a game i find my self saying how in the hell did he eff that up. Volpe has superior range, speed and you will never, ever think the kid is dogging it or taking plays off.

    I have been on record for 2yrs that this group of specs coming ( Volpe, Peraza and Dom) are different from the specs we've seen come up and struggle or fall off the map. I'm the spec guy, I get that, but IMO those kids are going to be absolute studs.. I 100% will live or die on that hill for those 3.
    torres has to go he always seem to be in on plays that kill the yankees like the bad flip in game 4 i do not like his attitude lack of hustle etc etc etc..

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    I'm not. Which version of Torres are we getting? the guy from his 1st 2yrs doesn't exist anymore ( largely due to the the juiced ball and maybe a buzzer) So are we getting the guy from 20-21 or last yr? He's not particularly fast to exploit the new rules next yr. Are we getting the GG caliber defender we have seen flashes of at 2nd or the guy who forgets how many outs there are and throws to the wrong bag?

    Torres has zero positional flexibility. If he could play 3rd, I'd be far more inclined to keep him

    Torres and Volpe are very similar players tools, build and positionally. The difference Volpe seem to make at leaast 1 play a day, where you say, how the hell did he make that play. With Torres it's 1-2 times a game i find my self saying how in the hell did he eff that up. Volpe has superior range, speed and you will never, ever think the kid is dogging it or taking plays off.

    I have been on record for 2yrs that this group of specs coming ( Volpe, Peraza and Dom) are different from the specs we've seen come up and struggle or fall off the map. I'm the spec guy, I get that, but IMO those kids are going to be absolute studs.. I 100% will live or die on that hill for those 3.
    Zero flexibility Day? He came up a SS. He's played 317 games at 2B and 252 games at SS at the ML level. His 6 seasons in minors were exclusively at SS. He also played a handful (23) games at 3B. At all levels he has more games at SS than any other position. Imo, he could play 3B if given the opportunity. Again imo, if you can play SS you can play anywhere on the IF.

    You believe the BS buzzer story? If the ball was juiced it effects all equally. Rising tide kinda thing. All relative.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Zero flexibility Day? He came up a SS. He's played 317 games at 2B and 252 games at SS at the ML level. His 6 seasons in minors were exclusively at SS. He also played a handful (23) games at 3B. At all levels he has more games at SS than any other position. Imo, he could play 3B if given the opportunity. Again imo, if you can play SS you can play anywhere on the IF.

    You believe the BS buzzer story? If the ball was juiced it effects all equally. Rising tide kinda thing. All relative.
    Doc, seriously ?? you saw a true SS in Torres in 20/21, factor in he couldn't hit when they played him there.. IKF was an equal or better defender at SS, thats saying something. His time coming up as a SS/3b was before the TJS that cost him a full grade of arm strength..

    Doc we both know that when they bring up kids that play up the middle, teams leave them there for perceived value. Torres has thickened up, lost range and arm strength his his day when he was considered a top SS spec.

    U want a proven guy? what exactly has Torres proved other than he's a veteran? That going into each yr, we have zero clue what were getting offensively, yep he's proven that. That he's an incredibly streaky player at the plate? that you can count on him going ice cold for weeks or longer at the time, Yep

    We got very lucky he got hot in Sept and got his number to a respectable level. What happens if he shows regression, again and goes back to the hitter he was in 20/21? He's got value enough now to get us something back of quality. Are you comfortable taking that chance and be stuck with a guy making 15Mish for 24 and no trade value?

    We have a chance to move Torres for something of value and replace him with a player who is younger, cheaper, more suited for next yrs game, with a much higher ceiling.

    Would you rather going with Torres and a guy like Thor or Rodon, Volpe and another valuable piece.. Torres 10m salary could make the difference between the two scenarios..
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  8. #98
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    I can't imagine Torres' trade value being especially significant currently (especially if you're hoping to upgrade the current MLB roster). I also can't see moving him somehow making the difference between signing someone like Thor at ~2/$25MM and someone like Rodon at ~5/$120MM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyi View Post
    Unless, perhaps, it is $80 - $100 million more.

    I don't think the offer is in the range of $300 million or the Yankees haven't learned their lesson from the Cano fiasco. Had they put the correct 8 year $200 million offer on the table and stopped playing around, he'd have been a Yankee and Ellie would have gone to Seattle. instead, they allowed Seattle to top their $160 million offer with one for $240 million. This year with Judge, the offer need to be between $320 million and $360 million. If not the Giants could swoop in with a 10 year offer for $380 million that is $80 million higher than the $300 million, which might give Aaron pause to think about the extra money.
    If the Giants offer 10 years they can have him

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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I can't imagine Torres' trade value being especially significant currently (especially if you're hoping to upgrade the current MLB roster). I also can't see moving him somehow making the difference between signing someone like Thor at ~2/$25MM and someone like Rodon at ~5/$120MM.
    Torres has enough value to get a mid rotation starter or an elite BP arm.

    Thor is going to get much more than that in this pitching market, he's still young, has a high ceiling and will sign short term. He get's closer to 15-20 AAV

    Rodon is expect to get something in the AAV range of 25-30 depend on who's in.. Torres is making 10mish

    Lets say Thor gets 18m, Rodon gets 30m.. Torres' 10m AAV gets them with in 2m AAV of Rodon. They can find 2m pretty easily if they need to. Higgy goes and U replace him for Rortvedt or Breaux making the minimum

    Even using your numbers there is a 11.5m gap in the AAV, with Torres moved it's not s stretch

    12m AAV, especially with LT Tax issues to worry about, is much tougher to find
    Last edited by dayners81; 12-02-2022 at 09:09 PM.
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    Torres has enough value to get a mid rotation starter or an elite BP arm.

    Thor is going to get much more than that in this pitching market, he's still young, has a high ceiling and will sign short term. He get's closer to 15-20 AAV

    Rodon is expect to get something in the AAV range of 25-30 depend on who's in.. Torres is making 10mish

    Lets say Thor gets 18m, Rodon gets 30m.. Torres' 10m AAV gets them with in 2m AAV of Rodon. They can find 2m pretty easily if they need to. Higgy goes and U replace him for Rortvedt or Breaux making the minimum

    Even using your numbers there is a 11.5m gap in the AAV, with Torres moved it's not s stretch

    12m AAV, especially with LT Tax issues to worry about, is much tougher to find
    rodon is not a innings eater thor is not the same talent he once was,, rodon cant even give you 200 innings..

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny ny View Post
    rodon is not a innings eater thor is not the same talent he once was,, rodon cant even give you 200 innings..
    how many pitchers give you 200 inning a yr? 5-6 consistently in BB? Besides whats your point other than what is common knowledge.. Thor doesn't cost what Rodon is going to because he's not the guy he was.. Duh
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  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    how many pitchers give you 200 inning a yr? 5-6 consistently in BB? Besides whats your point other than what is common knowledge.. Thor doesn't cost what Rodon is going to because he's not the guy he was.. Duh
    Rodon is better at pitching than Johnny is at typing. This is just a factual statement.

    Moving along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyskilla View Post
    His stern face can give that impression but I don't feel that's the case. New York isn't an easy place to play at, so honestly I can see his confidence at an all-time low for him.

    I don't think he's a bust. I think he just needs the right motivation to pick himself up & play harder.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    Torres has enough value to get a mid rotation starter or an elite BP arm.

    Thor is going to get much more than that in this pitching market, he's still young, has a high ceiling and will sign short term. He get's closer to 15-20 AAV

    Rodon is expect to get something in the AAV range of 25-30 depend on who's in.. Torres is making 10mish

    Lets say Thor gets 18m, Rodon gets 30m.. Torres' 10m AAV gets them with in 2m AAV of Rodon. They can find 2m pretty easily if they need to. Higgy goes and U replace him for Rortvedt or Breaux making the minimum

    Even using your numbers there is a 11.5m gap in the AAV, with Torres moved it's not s stretch

    12m AAV, especially with LT Tax issues to worry about, is much tougher to find
    I'd say you're being quite bullish with Syndergaard, as he's 30 and no one expects him to return to the flamethrower he was years ago at this point. Either way about it, him and Rodon's contract won't be anywhere near the same ballpark. Plus, the Yankees could pull off acquiring Rodon regardless of whether Torres is traded or not.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    how many pitchers give you 200 inning a yr? 5-6 consistently in BB? Besides whats your point other than what is common knowledge.. Thor doesn't cost what Rodon is going to because he's not the guy he was.. Duh
    not cpounting the 2020 season rodon last 4 seasons he has p[itched

    120 innings
    34 innings
    132
    178 which was his best on his free agent year that will be taking a huge risk for a pitcher with a injury history. elbow shoulder etc etc etc..

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