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  1. #76
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    Jul 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    I think the dangerous thing is not being realistic.

    Somewhere, someone else is saying almost exactly this same thing but from the other side. "Conservative" is seen as radical because whatever terrible things are accepted and celebrated now, blah blah blah. The system is a problem, that much almost goes without saying, but we also have to stop acting like there isn't another side trying to prevent many of the things we want, and tens of millions of people vote for them every election.

    Things get watered down and progress is incremental because, just to take the current US Senate as a convenient example, there are 50 Senators on the other side voting against almost everything, and so you end up not being able to pass nearly as much as you'd like.

    We can look at the negotiations around the ACA as another example of this. At the time there were still a few pro-life Democrat Senators, and given the makeup of the Senate they needed all of them on board if it was going to pass. So, for example, it took Harry Reid negotiating with Ben Nelson from Nebraska, who was pro-life and only agreed to vote for the ACA when insurance companies were no longer required to cover abortion services; states could enact their own laws that prohibited insurance markets from including abortion coverage, but it wasn't a requirement.

    We know the ACA has saved tens of thousands of lives after it's passage, despite the many Republican attempts to cripple it. We know millions more people have health insurance coverage as a result of it's passage. We know no Republican was going to vote for it to begin with, but keeping an abortion coverage requirement in it certainly wasn't going to sway any of them to vote for it.

    Which then makes the question this:

    Should the Democrats have kept the abortion coverage requirement in the bill and watched it fail to pass the Senate by one vote, or was more gained by removing it, gaining Nelson's vote, and enacting the reforms the ACA provided?

    The answer should be a simple one, but far too many people would look at that situation and say they shouldn't have compromised on anything, and as a result they wouldn't be getting anything. This is the problem with the way people ignore reality.
    Reality is cruel. But we should still push for what's right. We the people have more power than we realize. We just have to organize way better than we have.

  2. #77
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    Jan 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    While I understand your point, I think it's a dangerous thing to accept marginal improvements and a slow pace. For example, the fight for a $15 min wage. When that fight really took off, $15 was reasonable. Now, a reasonable min wage is in the upper 20s. But we've been stuck at the federal slave wage of 7.25 for 13 years.

    Perhaps we've been duped into thinking that "progressive" means something radical because of such slow progress, if any. Now, when we ask for something reasonable, such as a $25 min wage, it seems radical because we've been stuck for so long. I think this same logic applies to climate change, health care, etc.

    It's a sad reality that this current two party, easily bribed, broken system we have will never achieve the progress we really need.
    That is the only way real, lasting change happens. I'm concerned that someone would make this statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    the delays of the courts needs to end at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    And if people got **** counsel, well they had to die so the court could move faster…but tell me again how pro-life you are!
    I was told there would be pro-life! Not pro-death!
    ___

    Please remember not to reply to me if I'm not replying to you...you know who you are.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    That is the only way real, lasting change happens. I'm concerned that someone would make this statement.
    Given the widening wealth gap, the decrease in access to quality health care, the increasing risk of climate disaster, etc. I would say that real, lasting change hasn't happened. We thought that Roe V Wade was real, lasting change but that's out the window now. We thought the civil rights movement was real, lasting change but the racism is still prevalent. We thought social security was real, lasting change but now that's being attacked.

    I'm not living in a fantasy land. I understand the realities of our crappy system as it currently stands. It is my acknowledgement of reality that allows me to see the change that hasn't happened and the change that is still needed. And no, the change that is needed is not small. We need big changes.

    To me, accepting the currently reality is akin to complacency. And those in power play off of that complacency to remain in power.

  4. #79
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    Oct 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Given the widening wealth gap, the decrease in access to quality health care, the increasing risk of climate disaster, etc. I would say that real, lasting change hasn't happened. We thought that Roe V Wade was real, lasting change but that's out the window now. We thought the civil rights movement was real, lasting change but the racism is still prevalent. We thought social security was real, lasting change but now that's being attacked.

    I'm not living in a fantasy land. I understand the realities of our crappy system as it currently stands. It is my acknowledgement of reality that allows me to see the change that hasn't happened and the change that is still needed. And no, the change that is needed is not small. We need big changes.

    To me, accepting the currently reality is akin to complacency. And those in power play off of that complacency to remain in power.
    Agreed. In this country, most real and lasting change happens after significant and visible public disruption (sometimes quite violent).

  5. #80
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    Apr 2009
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    Central Iowa
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    11,024
    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Given the widening wealth gap, the decrease in access to quality health care, the increasing risk of climate disaster, etc. I would say that real, lasting change hasn't happened. We thought that Roe V Wade was real, lasting change but that's out the window now. We thought the civil rights movement was real, lasting change but the racism is still prevalent. We thought social security was real, lasting change but now that's being attacked.

    I'm not living in a fantasy land. I understand the realities of our crappy system as it currently stands. It is my acknowledgement of reality that allows me to see the change that hasn't happened and the change that is still needed. And no, the change that is needed is not small. We need big changes.

    To me, accepting the currently reality is akin to complacency. And those in power play off of that complacency to remain in power.
    How do you propose to make the changes you want to see short of armed revolution?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    How do you propose to make the changes you want to see short of armed revolution?
    Better organization. We see it in small sample sizes, but it can be done on a larger scale. Getting out there and talking with the community, holding events, etc. And not just rallies and speeches. More town halls. More platforms for people to be heard. Create more unions that push for voting in larger groups without work getting in the way. Way better use of social media to inform the people rather than as a platform for attacking. More protests against bribery. More protests against companies that seek to lessen our power.

    And when all else fails.....yeah.

  7. #82
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    Oct 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Reality is cruel. But we should still push for what's right. We the people have more power than we realize. We just have to organize way better than we have.
    Oh, to be clear I'm not saying to not try for more. Trying to get abortion coverage into the ACA was the right thing to do, and I'm glad they did it.

    What I'm saying is that we need to recognize that it's pretty much never going to be as simple as "we want this, so it should happen," and when we do get a win, even if it's one with compromises like the infrastructure bill, celebrating that win is not a bad thing. You don't build coalitions and win elections by talking about how everyone is bad and nothing will happen and voting is pointless.

    Compare this attitude:

    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Well, of course, a moderate finds it funny. Y'all got what you wanted. "The Dems did pass legislation". Yeah, I can hear your base cheering like hell about that, like environmentalists, retirees, and people depending on the child credit policy whose needs weren't met. The policy that affected them the most was cut during that circle jerk the DNC held. I know, cause I watched it happen.

    Thinking people weren't going to be pissed about that.

    With this that was part of the legislation he's eager to shrug off as nothing:

    President Joe Biden signed the $1.2 trillion deal earlier this week that includes about $11 billion in benefits for Indian Country, according to the U.S. Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. About one-third of that, $3.5 billion, will go to the Indian Health Service, the federal agency tasked with providing healthcare for more than 2 million Native American and Alaska Natives.

    The funding is enough to address more than 1,560 projects on the agency’s list of water and sanitation deficiencies in 12 regions, estimated to cost nearly $2.6 billion. Projects in Alaska and the Southwest region that covers the Navajo Nation — where many tribal members live without running water and indoor plumbing — collectively have the largest price tags.

    ...

    Another $2.5 billion will go to fulfill tribal water rights settlements that already have been approved. The Interior Department hasn’t specified which agreements that quantify tribes’ rights to water are included. But the leaders of the Navajo Nation, which extends into parts of Arizona, New Mexico and Utah, and the White Mountain Apache Tribe in eastern Arizona said they expect to benefit from the funding.
    It's not perfect, it's not as much as it should be, and the systems for tribes to get that money should be improved, but it's not the nothing people want to make it out to be. It's a good thing that tribal lands are getting this money to improve this infrastructure, and I'm not going to act like it's not.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Oh, to be clear I'm not saying to not try for more. Trying to get abortion coverage into the ACA was the right thing to do, and I'm glad they did it.

    What I'm saying is that we need to recognize that it's pretty much never going to be as simple as "we want this, so it should happen," and when we do get a win, even if it's one with compromises like the infrastructure bill, celebrating that win is not a bad thing. You don't build coalitions and win elections by talking about how everyone is bad and nothing will happen and voting is pointless.

    Compare this attitude:




    With this that was part of the legislation he's eager to shrug off as nothing:



    It's not perfect, it's not as much as it should be, and the systems for tribes to get that money should be improved, but it's not the nothing people want to make it out to be. It's a good thing that tribal lands are getting this money to improve this infrastructure, and I'm not going to act like it's not.
    I hear what you're saying, but that bolded part is what we need to fight against. What you wrote is a sophisticated way of saying that scraps were accepted. Although one can acknowledge the reality of the current system, accepting it is a totally different thing. It's just disappointing where we are.

  9. #84
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    Dec 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Given the widening wealth gap, the decrease in access to quality health care, the increasing risk of climate disaster, etc. I would say that real, lasting change hasn't happened. We thought that Roe V Wade was real, lasting change but that's out the window now. We thought the civil rights movement was real, lasting change but the racism is still prevalent. We thought social security was real, lasting change but now that's being attacked.

    I'm not living in a fantasy land. I understand the realities of our crappy system as it currently stands. It is my acknowledgement of reality that allows me to see the change that hasn't happened and the change that is still needed. And no, the change that is needed is not small. We need big changes.

    To me, accepting the currently reality is akin to complacency. And those in power play off of that complacency to remain in power.
    So whats an example of a good system?

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