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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Is Mitchell really any better than Gordon Hayward was before his injury? I have never understood, outside of age, why Mitchell was considered on Gobert's level as far as impact. The league has a glut of borderline all star caliber wings (we have a 21 year old who is likely as good as Mitchell right now), but it doesn't have but one player who is a one man defense.

    I agree we gave up a kings ransom, and this needs to work out. However, Mitchell is not the impact Gobert is to winning, and I am not sure he even makes Cleveland a ton better.

    I do love how we totally ****ed up the trade market for stars though. Make it painful to trade them, why not..
    There are a lot of mixed opinions on Mitchell and I fall probably somewhere in the middle on that. He put up 26 ppg and tied Conley for most apg on the #1 ranked offense in the league. He was the clear first option, attention getter and playmaker (even if more for himself than others often). His efficiency wasn't overly elite though, whether that be due to high volume and not much major help in terms of another scorer to take attention or something that will plague him/stop him from the next level I am not sure. He really isn't too far off from Gobert in many different impact type stats even if Gobert often has an edge and a couple that show his as clearly higher. So I think yes he is probably better than Hayward was and is still considered young with potential. I agree with you that he isn't quite the impact to winning as Gobert is at this moment as well though.

    To me that means we chose this move to win right now. They gave up similar value for the 30 year old Gobert imo and seemingly the general perception from others I saw. Some would argue their level of impact with us going for the older (outside of Ant peak timeline essentially) but bit higher impact now player I agree. Some of that may have been fit related but some question how the current fit will work at the same time so I am not sure on that (I personally think Mitchell and Ant can play 1/2 and be the main playmakers if Ant is as good as I hope, I also think Towns/Gobert should work as well though so I see it as a wash).

    That was basically my point all along is we sort of upped the price on the older asset they were shopping at the time. Perception is generally higher on Mitchell even if Gobert is higher impact right now we agree. I think that shifts within the next few years as Mitchell peaks and Gobert declines some. It's why I view it as a win now type move that comes with those higher expectations for the present team. It's arguably the most talented team we have ever had so they have at least a chance to reach them even if maybe not likely/expected by majority.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 09-07-2022 at 02:57 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    There are a lot of mixed opinions on Mitchell and I fall probably somewhere in the middle on that. He put up 26 ppg and tied Conley for most apg on the #1 ranked offense in the league. He was the clear first option, attention getter and playmaker (even if more for himself than others often). His efficiency wasn't overly elite though, whether that be due to high volume and not much major help in terms of another scorer to take attention or something that will plague him/stop him from the next level I am not sure. He really isn't too far off from Gobert in many different impact type stats even if Gobert often has an edge and a couple that show his as clearly higher. So I think yes he is probably better than Hayward was and is still considered young with potential. I agree with you that he isn't quite the impact to winning as Gobert is at this moment as well though.

    To me that means we chose this move to win right now. They gave up similar value for the 30 year old Gobert imo and seemingly the general perception from others I saw. Some would argue their level of impact with us going for the older (outside of Ant peak timeline essentially) but bit higher impact now player I agree. Some of that may have been fit related but some question how the current fit will work at the same time so I am not sure on that (I personally think Mitchell and Ant can play 1/2 and be the main playmakers if Ant is as good as I hope, I also think Towns/Gobert should work as well though so I see it as a wash).

    That was basically my point all along is we sort of upped the price on the older asset they were shopping at the time. Perception is generally higher on Mitchell even if Gobert is higher impact right now we agree. I think that shifts within the next few years as Mitchell peaks and Gobert declines some. It's why I view it as a win now type move that comes with those higher expectations for the present team. It's arguably the most talented team we have ever had so they have at least a chance to reach them even if maybe not likely/expected by majority.
    Hayward was exponentially a better defender, sadly. Mitchell is a ball dominant scoring guard, and you can find those much easier than a super efficient offensive lob threat that needs 0 touches, while turning your D into a top 5 defense.

    Perception across the league is fine, but reality is another thing. We have exhausted the Gobert trade details man, I just don't care which 7th grader we lose out on right now. Picks are very overrated as assets to me, but I do understand the pain point here even best case is we have no replenishment ability as this team ages. That sucks. As for the Mitchell-Gobert argument, I have always valued rim protectors who rebound, and his ability to average 15 a night on 7 shots is just a plus..

    Gobert has played as many games as Wiggins btw.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  3. #63
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    Wolves 2022 Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Hayward was exponentially a better defender, sadly. Mitchell is a ball dominant scoring guard, and you can find those much easier than a super efficient offensive lob threat that needs 0 touches, while turning your D into a top 5 defense.

    Perception across the league is fine, but reality is another thing. We have exhausted the Gobert trade details man, I just don't care which 7th grader we lose out on right now. Picks are very overrated as assets to me, but I do understand the pain point here even best case is we have no replenishment ability as this team ages. That sucks. As for the Mitchell-Gobert argument, I have always valued rim protectors who rebound, and his ability to average 15 a night on 7 shots is just a plus..

    Gobert has played as many games as Wiggins btw.
    Gordon was better but it's not like he was a very good defender himself, that isn't much of a difference making aspect. He never lead an offense like that nor was capable of being the main guy on an offense like that in nearly the same way as Mitchell. Mitchell was 11th last year in RPM and had a positive drpm as well. In 2017 Haywards last season with Utah with his best #'s he ended up 53rd in RPM. It really wasn't even close because the ability to carry an offense to the level Mitchell has shown is much more important than a slight upgrade on defense (drpm was also higher for Mitchell this year as well).

    Then you don't have to? No one was posting and I figured why not comment about a recent move in the NBA related to a recent trade we just made that I previously made a point about (and now we see the results as reference). I am not saying this is something horrible, my point is this is why I was calling it more of a win right now move and that we paid a pretty high price. He also played in Europe instead of jumping to the NBA right away and is still active for France (I also am not sure a younger gobert only having 4 seasons of 70+ games is a positive in terms of how many he plays while older either). I am not saying he will fall off a cliff but Mitchell is just about to hit his peak and Gobert is on the wrongs side of 30. The gap in their impact could end up flipping in the next few years.

    Ya I said that overall impact right now I would go with Gobert so again I agree. We just paid up for that older impact type player which signals to me that we think we can win now like I have said. It comes with high expectations but it's because right now we should have a better team and take a huge jump up (into the "outside contender" range if you will). Part of me really wants to view it as them all in on Ant being a superstar given what they have seen (both on court like us and off in work ethic).
    Last edited by mngopher35; 09-08-2022 at 01:25 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Gordon was better but it's not like he was a very good defender himself, that isn't much of a difference making aspect. He never lead an offense like that nor was capable of being the main guy on an offense like that in nearly the same way as Mitchell. Mitchell was 11th last year in RPM and had a positive drpm as well. In 2017 Haywards last season with Utah with his best #'s he ended up 53rd in RPM. It really wasn't even close because the ability to carry an offense to the level Mitchell has shown is much more important than a slight upgrade on defense (drpm was also higher for Mitchell this year as well).

    Then you don't have to? No one was posting and I figured why not comment about a recent move in the NBA related to a recent trade we just made that I previously made a point about (and now we see the results as reference). I am not saying this is something horrible, my point is this is why I was calling it more of a win right now move and that we paid a pretty high price. He also played in Europe instead of jumping to the NBA right away and is still active for France (I also am not sure a younger gobert only having 4 seasons of 70+ games is a positive in terms of how many he plays while older either). I am not saying he will fall off a cliff but Mitchell is just about to hit his peak and Gobert is on the wrongs side of 30. The gap in their impact could end up flipping in the next few years.

    Ya I said that overall impact right now I would go with Gobert so again I agree. We just paid up for that older impact type player which signals to me that we think we can win now like I have said. It comes with high expectations but it's because right now we should have a better team and take a huge jump up (into the "outside contender" range if you will). Part of me really wants to view it as them all in on Ant being a superstar given what they have seen (both on court like us and off in work ethic).
    Value is a perception obviously. Perception is what made a 22 year old draftee seem ancient when in 1995 that was the norm for example. Which is why I don't really pay attention to what league execs deem as "valuable". I don't ignore it, just saying I don't really care about it.

    What Mitchell does, a handful of other guys do as well. We have a bigger version of Mitchell who will surpass him shortly. I just think high volume scorers that play no defense are really not that hard to replace. Would you toss the kitchen sink at a 24 year old Beal? Meh

    Yea dude, this team clearly thinks it is ready for deep playoff runs. Gobert literally just turned 30, and doesn't rely on the traits that diminish in your early 30s to succeed fortunately. We have a prime Gobert for another 3-4 years at least.

    More or less, I am pumped about this season. I expect over 50 wins, and 2nd round or better. Up to the Wolves to justify the trade, not me..

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Value is a perception obviously. Perception is what made a 22 year old draftee seem ancient when in 1995 that was the norm for example. Which is why I don't really pay attention to what league execs deem as "valuable". I don't ignore it, just saying I don't really care about it.

    What Mitchell does, a handful of other guys do as well. We have a bigger version of Mitchell who will surpass him shortly. I just think high volume scorers that play no defense are really not that hard to replace. Would you toss the kitchen sink at a 24 year old Beal? Meh

    Yea dude, this team clearly thinks it is ready for deep playoff runs. Gobert literally just turned 30, and doesn't rely on the traits that diminish in your early 30s to succeed fortunately. We have a prime Gobert for another 3-4 years at least.

    More or less, I am pumped about this season. I expect over 50 wins, and 2nd round or better. Up to the Wolves to justify the trade, not me..
    Of course, so is a players impact. A players impact is often also part of the perceived value they have. I am not only talking about execs either, I think many feel that way across the board given what I have seen/read and plenty of it is based on some of the data I am showing. I care about value to the point that gaining/losing value is a major factor in team construction but I agree general perception is far far far from perfect.

    Ya, there aren't many players that can lead a #1 offense like that but there are some. I mentioned fit might have been a part of it and it's why I also think maybe they do in fact expect Ant to be that elite superstar carry on offense on his back type sooner than later. So my hope is that you are essentially right here and they do think Ant will surpass him and be that guy. I don't think Beal ever put up his numbers while carrying a top offense, I would trust Mitchell over him in that aspect. I think you were right there are a handful of guys that do it as well but don't think he is one of them.

    I don't expect him to fall off a cliff like I said, the point was at say 33 years of age a peak Mitchell might be having more impact than him by that time. I think that 3-4 year window is about right which is when we need are pushing to be a legitimate contender for a championship and make the finals etc. I am excited too, I think 50 wins and round 2 would be alright year 1 even if a bit underwhelming (I know you said at least, just saying). That is better than basically all but the 04 season for our franchise.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Of course, so is a players impact. A players impact is often also part of the perceived value they have. I am not only talking about execs either, I think many feel that way across the board given what I have seen/read and plenty of it is based on some of the data I am showing. I care about value to the point that gaining/losing value is a major factor in team construction but I agree general perception is far far far from perfect.

    Ya, there aren't many players that can lead a #1 offense like that but there are some. I mentioned fit might have been a part of it and it's why I also think maybe they do in fact expect Ant to be that elite superstar carry on offense on his back type sooner than later. So my hope is that you are essentially right here and they do think Ant will surpass him and be that guy. I don't think Beal ever put up his numbers while carrying a top offense, I would trust Mitchell over him in that aspect. I think you were right there are a handful of guys that do it as well but don't think he is one of them.

    I don't expect him to fall off a cliff like I said, the point was at say 33 years of age a peak Mitchell might be having more impact than him by that time. I think that 3-4 year window is about right which is when we need are pushing to be a legitimate contender for a championship and make the finals etc. I am excited too, I think 50 wins and round 2 would be alright year 1 even if a bit underwhelming (I know you said at least, just saying). That is better than basically all but the 04 season for our franchise.
    Do I wish Gobert just turned 27? Of course. But I am also more excited for these next couple of seasons than I have been since I was 28 years old and we were going into the 03-04' season. KG was amazing, but didn't have "it". And he also didn't have any legit #2-3 options at all. We have the "it" guy in Ant, even if he is a year or 2 away from pushing for league elite. We also have an amazing 2-3rd bananas now. There are some needed tweaks (PG for example), but the rest is there.

    Can't wait to get going.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Do I wish Gobert just turned 27? Of course. But I am also more excited for these next couple of seasons than I have been since I was 28 years old and we were going into the 03-04' season. KG was amazing, but didn't have "it". And he also didn't have any legit #2-3 options at all. We have the "it" guy in Ant, even if he is a year or 2 away from pushing for league elite. We also have an amazing 2-3rd bananas now. There are some needed tweaks (PG for example), but the rest is there.

    Can't wait to get going.
    Ya I agree, what I am saying isn't changing anything about my views of the team. I just like to talk/analyze the game and my teams so when moves are made I try and look at the full picture. If I were a Cavs fan I would probably be looking at the angle of how Garland/Mitchell fit for example. Ant has a lot more potential defensively which I think would have made a better fit. It doesn't mean I don't think a Garland/Mitchell/Mobley/Allen core is very nice with major potential but that's context I would also discuss.

    If Ant is truly that elite superstar type then we have the most talented Wolves team in history at this point I think I have said. That should be very exciting for those of us waiting since 2004 for talent like this to come together as you get at haha. I am not sure we will be able to do much about Russell/PG position other than hope he can get the job done but we will see what they come up with. I really think Jaden fits what we want as a 3/d type sf so if we wanted to somehow make one more move PG is the spot to do it imo.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Ya I agree, what I am saying isn't changing anything about my views of the team. I just like to talk/analyze the game and my teams so when moves are made I try and look at the full picture. If I were a Cavs fan I would probably be looking at the angle of how Garland/Mitchell fit for example. Ant has a lot more potential defensively which I think would have made a better fit. It doesn't mean I don't think a Garland/Mitchell/Mobley/Allen core is very nice with major potential but that's context I would also discuss.

    If Ant is truly that elite superstar type then we have the most talented Wolves team in history at this point I think I have said. That should be very exciting for those of us waiting since 2004 for talent like this to come together as you get at haha. I am not sure we will be able to do much about Russell/PG position other than hope he can get the job done but we will see what they come up with. I really think Jaden fits what we want as a 3/d type sf so if we wanted to somehow make one more move PG is the spot to do it imo.
    If I am a Cavs fan, I am hoping we get longer than 3 years (that is all Mitchell has committed) from him, and I worry about having a high school sized backcourt. I think the Cavs solidified themselves as a playoff team, but I don't see that roster talented enough to compete deep in the playoffs by any means. Ultimately, if Mobley becomes a complete beast by year 3 things change.

    Yeah man, I know it. I personally feel Ant will be a superstar talent, capable of being a 28-7-5 efficient guy with above average defense. Maybe not this year, but he will be knocking on the all NBA door I think, which is what most superstars are doing by year 3.

    Jaden is the linchpin too, I think he will be such a great fit on a chip team. I am in love with him.

    Buckle up Wolves fans, hopefully this season is a great one!

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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