Ukraine

[MRSpock]

What is US "POLICY" going forward? I don't think that there is one. I don't think that Biden has a clue, do you? Wonder who is pulling his strings? Wonder what Barry O wants to happen?

It interesting how the US "policy" was right before the invasion appeared to be, paying lip service to aiding Ukraine and figuring that the Russia would invade Ukraine and take what they want , put their puppets in place and then leave. Well, Zelensky and the really tough Ukrainians had other ideas and Zelensky masterfully led Biden and the stupid Biden and company by the nose to becoming the banker and supplier to Ukraine to the tune of over $50-70B of military aid. By the way, where is NATO's and the EU's part of this support?

So now, once again, what is US policy going forward? Do we think that Russia is going to leave Ukraine? Who rebuilds it if Russia leaves? IF Russia still continues to keep its forces fighting in Ukraine, does the US commit to unending support for Ukraine's fight? If Russia leaves, do we pay the lion's share of the rebuilding burden? I cannot imagine that the US taxpayers as a whole will be okay with either of those possibilities.

Its really going to be interesting for both sides.

What do you want to happen.

And yes. I think at the end if the day. Ukraine deserves to be defended. Yes, 70 billion on aid is a lot, but adding another country to the global economy will be beneficial in the long term.

On a side note too. I think this has probably really hurt China and Russias relationship.

I can go deeper, but imi want to hear what you want to happen. Specifically.

[MRSpock]

Just commenting on Spock "I got a Hammer" approach in dealing with the Russians.

As opposed to your what? Trump approach?

"Guys Putin promised me he won't invade again".

But again. So brave of you to be willing to give up the safety of other countries.

Such a hero.

[WES445]

What do you believe Putin’s objective in invading Russia is?

Intimidation. He told his vanguard they would be celebrated as liberators. Even had them pack their dress uniform. From top to bottom these clowns actually thought this would be a cake walk. It was intimidation and hoping for some Ukrainians deep feeling for Russia to win the day for him. Putin suffered worst advice from his advisors than George W. did with the necons. Supplies problems, logistic like not packing winter gear, bone head decisions like not cutting power to Kyiv when they had it surrounded, and digging trenches by chernobyl all indicated a invasion plan blow to hell and now we are witnessing the "Dance of the Murderous Clowns".

Intimidation ploy that blew up in Putin's face. He is now desperate and cornered. I am pushing to give him a out with something instead of fanning the fire into a active confrontation with a another nuclear power. I think people keep forgetting that factor. There is no guarantee that people will act rationally in the heat of war. Let's turn down the volume on that threat.

Putin, whether he knows it or not, has no future on the world's stage after this even if he get some brownie points for his heinous action. Russia, as a country, will take time to bounce back from this one. Plus, no one have any doubts on the pecking order of the superpowers, Russia, China and USA. Take that as win. Putin shot his own country in the foot.

[WES445]

As opposed to your what? Trump approach?

"Guys Putin promised me he won't invade again".

But again. So brave of you to be willing to give up the safety of other countries.

Such a hero.

Once again casting me in the extreme. It isn't about Trump, Putin or this country, but getting peace in Ukraine, getting their wheat out to avoid famine in Africa and the Middle East. To many things depends on Peace in Ukraine, ie food and fuel on a international level, beyond our raging boner for Putin. Putin has proven that Russia is a Paper Tiger with nukes so take that as a win as well as Putin upcoming downfall.

Why would Putin even chose to do this again? He actually accomplish what he didn't want to happen. Made Nato unity stronger and chased Finland and Sweden into their arms. Damn nearly blackballed in world affairs. Russians travelers aboard are being verbally attack on the streets of Europe.

And the invasion is still stalled and a major drain on a sanctioned economy. Who would want to do this again and still be considered sane?

[WES445]

Aww yes. Don't continuously reward bad behavior = same as **** em to death.

Dont negotiate away other countries freedoms.

I mean like I've said before. It amazes me how you've said multiple times that Palestine shouldn't accept any deal from Israel. Comparing it to the natives making deals with America.

Then 3 months later you want Ukraine to trust Russia?


You have no consistent views on anything. Epitome of a reactionary.

Focus, we aren't talking about old feuds. We are good enough at creating new ones to be dragging up the past. What? You are a old girlfriend or something?

Trust Russia in three months? Didn't I insist that Ukraine remained armed in any cease-fire agreement? Ukraine may never been in NATO, but they will have access to our weapon as a deterrence to any future Russia incursions and honor the Ukrainians need for national defense. Russia lose a weapon customer.

I don't think Russia is going to agree to a "Armed" Ukraine, but that is mandatory due to their actions. They might have face the fact that Sweden and Finland, even if they aren't in NATO, will be bulking up militarily. Once again, Nato weapons buyers.

Putin, messed up royally, any peace agreement must consider their aggressive behavior in the past and the Russians must accept their neighbors need to not trust them for it.

Once again, thank you for your critique about me. It is always delightful and insightful to the subject at hand.

[dbroncos78087]

Intimidation. He told his vanguard they would be celebrated as liberators. Even had them pack their dress uniform. From top to bottom these clowns actually thought this would be a cake walk. It was intimidation and hoping for some Ukrainians deep feeling for Russia to win the day for him. Putin suffered worst advice from his advisors than George W. did with the necons. Supplies problems, logistic like not packing winter gear, bone head decisions like not cutting power to Kyiv when they had it surrounded, and digging trenches by chernobyl all indicated a invasion plan blow to hell and now we are witnessing the "Dance of the Murderous Clowns".

Intimidation ploy that blew up in Putin's face. He is now desperate and cornered. I am pushing to give him a out with something instead of fanning the fire into a active confrontation with a another nuclear power. I think people keep forgetting that factor. There is no guarantee that people will act rationally in the heat of war. Let's turn down the volume on that threat.

Putin, whether he knows it or not, has no future on the world's stage after this even if he get some brownie points for his heinous action. Russia, as a country, will take time to bounce back from this one. Plus, no one have any doubts on the pecking order of the superpowers, Russia, China and USA. Take that as win. Putin shot his own country in the foot.

Well now that he has failed in that goal, what do you believe he continues to fight for? What is his goal now?

[Bird of Prey]

What do you want to happen.

And yes. I think at the end if the day. Ukraine deserves to be defended. Yes, 70 billion on aid is a lot, but adding another country to the global economy will be beneficial in the long term.

On a side note too. I think this has probably really hurt China and Russias relationship.

I can go deeper, but imi want to hear what you want to happen. Specifically.

I am hopeful that the rumors of Putin being very sick is true and that Putin croaks, first of all. I also hope that before this happens he sees the Russin army withdrawing in disgrace and his dream of expanding the Russian footprint in the Balkans defeated.

Also, the world community should make Russia pay a heavy price toward rebuilding Ukraine and basically put on probation. Of course, they still have nukes and somehow we must make every effort to develop defensive ability to take out missiles ala the Israeli missile dome capability.

No matter what else happens, Russia has lost it reputation as a world power. The possibility of a realignment of Russia, politically could happen and return a measure of freedom to the Russian people. Its my hope that the Russian people will find out what really happened. ANd I think you are right in your opinion that China and Russia's relationship will be different with China taking great economic advantage of Russia's weakened state.

[WES445]

Well now that he has failed in that goal, what do you believe he continues to fight for? What is his goal now?

Desperation. Does it look like he is winning like he suppose to be? He is trying to save his seat of power. The longer this goes on, the more it damage him. I am betting he is looking for a out. Marcon and Zelensky are more open to working with Putin then Biden and our government. They bring up giving Putin a out, not me.

[Crovash]

I am hopeful that the rumors of Putin being very sick is true and that Putin croaks, first of all. I also hope that before this happens he sees the Russin army withdrawing in disgrace and his dream of expanding the Russian footprint in the Balkans defeated.

Also, the world community should make Russia pay a heavy price toward rebuilding Ukraine and basically put on probation. Of course, they still have nukes and somehow we must make every effort to develop defensive ability to take out missiles ala the Israeli missile dome capability.

No matter what else happens, Russia has lost it reputation as a world power. The possibility of a realignment of Russia, politically could happen and return a measure of freedom to the Russian people. Its my hope that the Russian people will find out what really happened. ANd I think you are right in your opinion that China and Russia's relationship will be different with China taking great economic advantage of Russia's weakened state.

I see. Sort of like stiving to impose some of the negative consequences of Russia’s actions. Seems like a good overall objective to me.

[dbroncos78087]

Desperation. Does it look like he is winning like he suppose to be? He is trying to save his seat of power. The longer this goes on, the more it damage him. I am betting he is looking for a out. Marcon and Zelensky are more open to working with Putin then Biden and our government. They bring up giving Putin a out, not me.

Do you believe that he (or his oligarchs) will accept no new land from Ukraine and just simply not having them join NATO as saving face? Because I don’t believe it for a damn minute.

My view is that Putin needs to be broken. I don’t want to extend the war in Ukraine but I believe in the long term it will be far better for Ukraine and the other former Soviet countries.

[Bird of Prey]

I see. Sort of like stiving to impose some of the negative consequences of Russia’s actions. Seems like a good overall objective to me.

Yep. Russia does have to understand that they it lost a war that Putin started. Not rub their face in it but not give them anything other than that. I don't believe Zelenskyy would ever agree to anykind of a "deal" with Russia that involves giving up an inch of Ukraine nor should they. Hopefully, Putin will be taken out of power by his own people and some level minded Gorbachev type leader emerges to replace him.

Someone should also level with the Russians that if they play the Putin nuke card, that off the record, we will respond with overwhelming force that would result in massive destruction of Russia as a country. The possibility of Putin dying of cancer is really a wild card right? Can this guy be depressed enough to think that since he is going to croak, that he might as well try and end the world with him? Scary world right now. Somehow the powers in Russia need to step in and take Putin out one way of the other I think.

[WES445]

Do you believe that he (or his oligarchs) will accept no new land from Ukraine and just simply not having them join NATO as saving face? Because I don’t believe it for a damn minute.

My view is that Putin needs to be broken. I don’t want to extend the war in Ukraine but I believe in the long term it will be far better for Ukraine and the other former Soviet countries.

"In the long term it will be far better for Ukraine" I am sure they will appreciate the sentiment.

Yeah, I think they will accept no new land in return to end NATO encroachment. Any other option would be costly over time. We put Sweden and Finland entering NATO on hold basic on future Russian actions. Ukraine remains neutral. A agreement to not accept more buffer states into NATO.

The whole point for Putin's invasion was his complains about NATO encroachment over a decade and how he won't allow it. He gets that and nothing more. He has his out. Whether he agree with it or not depends on him.

[dbroncos78087]

"In the long term it will be far better for Ukraine" I am sure they will appreciate the sentiment.

Yeah, I think they will accept no new land in return to end NATO encroachment. Any other option would be costly over time. We put Sweden and Finland entering NATO on hold basic on future Russian actions. Ukraine remains neutral. A agreement to not accept more buffer states into NATO.

The whole point for Putin's invasion was his complains about NATO encroachment over a decade and how he won't allow it. He gets that and nothing more. He has his out. Whether he agree with it or not depends on him.

Do you think they would rather the war be a little longer so they can avoid another incursion in another 8 years? We can’t act like once Putin/Russia leave they will never come back. They absolutely will with no change.

[WES445]

Do you think they would rather the war be a little longer so they can avoid another incursion in another 8 years? We can’t act like once Putin/Russia leave they will never come back. They absolutely will with no change.

We have no proof that Putin will even survive this debacle and why would Russia try ANOTHER costly war like this one? They have lost eight generals. Who would want to go thru that again. That is like thinking we would go back into Iraq.

You only do things that are proven successful. Ukraine isn't a successful invasion.

[dbroncsinmo]

Yeah...sure. let's cheer for Russia to kill many many more Ukrainians so we can make an example of Putin.