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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    This. I mean the Heat big 3 and the Cavs big 3 all had 1 player the organization drafted, so would that make them a non superteam?

    Of course not... just because a players are or are not drafted by the organization shouldnt matter when labelling them a superteam. If a team has 3 great players, or even 2 great players and 1 really good player that team should be considered a superteam or at least in the conversation of 1.

    like S&W said, they are all constructed different ways.
    The last line is all I needed to hear. Every team is constructed differently. There is no one formula to building a super team.

    This idea that lebron did something special is just asinine. Itís been going ok for years. Litterally the Celtics that weíre in his way of a ship were three stars forming in Pierce, Allen, and KG

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    NYKall the way, before jumping in to a discussion Iím having with someone else with out following the context of our debate. Perhaps you should finish the conversation you and I were having.

    So did you think there was better parity back in the day vs now? I want you to really look back and compare to when the Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls were dominating the league and now. I truly believe there is much better parity in the league today. Perhaps player movement isnít such a bad thing?
    Yes, there was.

    It looks like it doesn't because of all the tanking though, so someone who hasn't really looked or followed closely and only bases his view on a few results and context absent numbers would miss that.

    90s have the Expansion hiccup, different way to read that and of course it wasn't helping parity that much.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Yes, there was.

    It looks like it doesn't because of all the tanking though, so someone who hasn't really looked or followed closely and only bases his view on a few results and context absent numbers would miss that.

    90s have the Expansion hiccup, different way to read that and of course it wasn't helping parity that much.
    Celtics ship years 1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008)

    Lakers ship years (1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010, 2020)

    I donít think I need to say much here. There wasnít a whole lot of parity for a long time. I really believe there is a lot more parity now.

    Whoís gonna win this year? Bucks? Nets? Suns? Jazz? Bulls? I remember for years it was for gone conclusion as to who would win, and now itís more of a crap shoot where a bunch of teams can win.


    I donít need to be right here. We can def agree to disagree. But I just donít see the evidence that there was more parity in the past compared to today
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 01-17-2022 at 03:19 PM.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But this is where it just gets so arbitrary and dumb in my mind. The cavs acquired a great player. That great player shifted then to win now mode, so they traded their young assets, which included the recent #1 pick for a player who's time line fits the current roster. If that's a borderline super team, then the Bucks last year would be too becuase they traded future picks for Jrue Holiday. And giannis with his looming FA decision was essentially able to force the bucks hand into proving they could try to win now.

    To an extent its actually not much different than AD and the Lakers. Sure, he made it clear he wanted to go to LA, but they didn't have to trade him there. Someone else could have taken a 1 year gamble and hoped to convince him to stay or win a rinf like Toronto did with Kawhi.

    And now you can start talking about the Big 3 Celtics. I dont fully recall, but I'm not sure Allen or Garnett ever said trade me to the Celtics or I'm not playing. The celtics had assets and one elite player so they traded those assets for legit players to help maximize their window.
    Jrue Holliday, while a good player, isn't the level of player we are discussing. The top players on a super team are the top players in the league. I'd say top 5 or 10 players in the NBA. The current Lakers team is a borderline super team. Westbrook is past his prime but lebron and AD are two of the top players in the league.

    The celtics big 3 is borderline as well.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Jrue Holliday, while a good player, isn't the level of player we are discussing. The top players on a super team are the top players in the league. I'd say top 5 or 10 players in the NBA. The current Lakers team is a borderline super team. Westbrook is past his prime but lebron and AD are two of the top players in the league.

    The celtics big 3 is borderline as well.
    youre gonna be hard pressed to find a team with 3 top 10 players in the league. Expand that to top 20 then you have some options.
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Jrue Holliday, while a good player, isn't the level of player we are discussing. The top players on a super team are the top players in the league. I'd say top 5 or 10 players in the NBA. The current Lakers team is a borderline super team. Westbrook is past his prime but lebron and AD are two of the top players in the league.

    The celtics big 3 is borderline as well.
    the 3rd piece isnít always a super star. Was Bosh a superstar? Was Love a super star? Those are rhetorical questions. Both guys had inflated stats on bad teams. But when joining lebron they were perfect in their roles as a 3rd fiddle. But neither guy was ever a super star. Just good players on bad teams.

    Jrue is an all nba defender. I would argue Iíd prefer him to Irving at this point. I donít consider Irving a top 20 player either, but I still consider the nets a super team with him being that 3rd piece.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc77 View Post
    Jrue Holliday, while a good player, isn't the level of player we are discussing. The top players on a super team are the top players in the league. I'd say top 5 or 10 players in the NBA. The current Lakers team is a borderline super team. Westbrook is past his prime but lebron and AD are two of the top players in the league.

    The celtics big 3 is borderline as well.
    And that's some of the question too. So the Lakers werent a super team when they won becuase, while they had two top 10 players, their 3rd guy wasn't flirting with top 20 even. But now they are borderline because they got Russ? But even then, AD hasn't played like a top 10 player in the league this year or last really. So does that factor in as well?

    Like others said, Bosh is a question mark then too. All nba doesn't signify the top 15 or whatever players in the league exactly, but if we use that as a proxy, bosh has 1 all nba team appearance, signifying that he's basically been a top 15 player 1 time in his career more or less. Ray Allen by the way does have 2 All NBA appearances. Dray and Klay both have 2 all nba appearances too by the way.

    And I like Bosh. I think Bosh exists in this weird portion of NBA history where he's subsequently both over rated and underrated, depending on what point you're trying to make. Bosh was a really good player. He wasn't really good enough to carry a bad team. He sacrificed the most in Miami, but you can make an argument, especially towards the end, that he was maybe more important that Wade to that teams success. But because he's considered part of the Big 3, I also think people tend to go back to him being this stud that would have carried teams at times. It's hard to make a modern day comp, but he isn't on the level that current guys like embiid, Giannis and Jokic are on for bigs. He also wasnt on the level that AD has been at either. To be honest, he's a different player type, but he's probably closer to the level of a guy like khris Middleton.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post

    Whoís gonna win this year? Bucks? Nets? Suns? Jazz? Bulls? I remember for years it was for gone conclusion as to who would win, and now itís more of a crap shoot where a bunch of teams can win.
    The reason why you're not sure in the last 3-4 years who's gonna win is because the super team gimmick has gone bad, as it doesn't always produce great teams, and the only team that wasn't expected to win [5th favorites] and managed to win were the Toronto Raptors and that mostly because Durant was out.

    2019-20: Lakers 2nd favorites
    2020-21: Bucks 2nd favorites
    2021-22: Nets 1st, Lakers 2nd, Bucks 3rd, Warriors 4th, Jazz 5th, Suns 5th, 76ers 7th. You've already discounted the 2nd favorites, which is also a 'super team', yet the trend so far tells us that the 2nd favorite gets to win

    The only time we had the top favorite win in the 90s was:
    1990: 2nd Pistons ring
    1992: 2nd Bulls ring
    1993: 3rd Bulls ring
    1996: 1st of the second threepeat
    1997: 5th Bulls ring
    1998: 6th Bulls ring

    This spells Jordan and Bulls dominance more than anything. You even called it a super team just because of how great they were. But it wasn't a dynasty, the only common factors were Phil, Jordan and Pippen.

    In the 2010s, the only time it didn't work from 2011 to 2018 was when Lebron's team lost (in 2016 the Cavs were the preseason favorites).
    In 2010 the Lakers were the favorites and won, so it can also be included as part of the decade I suppose. 2019 the favorites lost in the final.

    2000s? The only top favorites to have won it were 2001 Lakers, 2002 Lakers, 2005 Spurs. That's 3/10.
    90s, sure the Bulls cover 50% of those, but Lakers didn't win in 1999, Suns didn't win in 1995, Knicks didn't win in 1994, Pistons didn't win in 1991. 6/10 times.

    The 80s don't give out that much data on this, it starts from 1984-85 but still.
    Lakers didn't win in 1986, Celtics didn't win in 1987 (Lakers were behind Rockets as well), Lakers didn't win in 1989. That's 2/5 where the top favorites won, with 1985 being two top favorites that both reached the Finals.

    2010s, apart from 2010 itself with Lakers as top favorites, every other time the favorite was Lebron's team, except 2017 and 2018. Lebron only won 3 rings in the 2010s, so you can tell that in 8 years that's rather poor and we've had this discussion again with some other guys.

    2010: Lakers 1st, won
    2011: Heat 1st lost to Mavs 7th
    2012: Heat 1st, won
    2013: Heat 1st, won
    2014: Heat 1st, lost to Spurs 6th
    2015: Cavs 1st, lost to Warriors 8th
    2016: Cavs 1st, won
    2017: Warriors 1st, won
    2018: Warriors 1st, won
    2019: Warriors 1st, lost to Raptors 5th

    You may say whatever you want about this being a factor, when playoff odds could have looked different, but teams are created in the off season and they are judged accordingly at the time. Them failing doesn't mean that the intention wasn't to succeed in a specific way.

    You're free to check the odds for the top 10-15 teams in the league and compare with other seasons. Last couple of seasons, sure, there's more parity. But there's more parity than the 2010s, not in general. You will notice that both the 80s and the 90s actually had more parity than the last couple of seasons and the most one sided seasons were the 8 where Lebron was in his prime at superteams, which I hold against him but that is for another discussion that I'm tired of going over and over again against his blind followers.


    At the moment there are 2 so called super teams. The Nets and the Lakers. And they were expected to reach the Finals. We'll see how it goes.

    I cannot predict the future, but I can tell you that super teams don't always work out well for them, but they definitely work out against the league.
    You named a few sides that could win, scrap those super teams and they're still contenders and you also give birth to a couple of more due to dismantling those stacked teams. Then you can talk about parity.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 01-17-2022 at 05:14 PM.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    And that's some of the question too. So the Lakers werent a super team when they won becuase, while they had two top 10 players, their 3rd guy wasn't flirting with top 20 even. But now they are borderline because they got Russ? But even then, AD hasn't played like a top 10 player in the league this year or last really. So does that factor in as well?

    Like others said, Bosh is a question mark then too. All nba doesn't signify the top 15 or whatever players in the league exactly, but if we use that as a proxy, bosh has 1 all nba team appearance, signifying that he's basically been a top 15 player 1 time in his career more or less. Ray Allen by the way does have 2 All NBA appearances. Dray and Klay both have 2 all nba appearances too by the way.

    And I like Bosh. I think Bosh exists in this weird portion of NBA history where he's subsequently both over rated and underrated, depending on what point you're trying to make. Bosh was a really good player. He wasn't really good enough to carry a bad team. He sacrificed the most in Miami, but you can make an argument, especially towards the end, that he was maybe more important that Wade to that teams success. But because he's considered part of the Big 3, I also think people tend to go back to him being this stud that would have carried teams at times. It's hard to make a modern day comp, but he isn't on the level that current guys like embiid, Giannis and Jokic are on for bigs. He also wasnt on the level that AD has been at either. To be honest, he's a different player type, but he's probably closer to the level of a guy like khris Middleton.
    Yeah I would say thatís a fair comps.

    Bosh was just on a team that needed him to be a corner stone. So he had nice numbers because of his usuage. But he sucked as a lead man. It would be exactly like making Middleton your best player and trying to build around him.

    I actually viewed Love the same way. Great numbers in Minni. But couldnít lead them to anything. And he too was reduced to a role that was likely more suited for him anyways when playing with Lebron & Kyrie..

    Or we can even bring up the fact that guys like Draymond & Rodman were great defenders for their super teams as 3rd pieces. Jrue can be seen in that light as well. Either way he was a big part of the Bucks ship run and the clear 3rd piece. Saying heís not comparable to other 3rd options that won a title is just wrong. Jrue is a good player that impacts winning by being unselfish, playing the right away, and being a great defender. To discredit him is grasping at straws. He was the piece that got them over.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 01-17-2022 at 05:19 PM.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Yeah I would say thatís a fair comps.

    Bosh was just on a team that needed him to be a corner stone. So he had nice numbers because of his usuage. But he sucked as a lead man. It would be exactly like making Middleton your best player and trying to build around him.

    I actually viewed Love the same way. Great numbers in Minni. But couldnít lead them to anything. And he too was reduced to a role that was likely more suited for him anyways when playing with Lebron & Kyrie..

    Or we can even bring up the fact that guys like Draymond & Rodman were great defenders for their super teams as 3rd pieces. Jrue can be seen in that light as well. Either way he was a big part of the Bucks ship run and the clear 3rd piece. Saying heís not comparable to other 3rd options that won a title is just wrong. Jrue is a good player that impacts winning by being unselfish, playing the right away, and being a great defender. To discredit him is grasping at straws. He was the piece that got them over.
    I was a Bosh fan in his raptor days, ironically I liked both Bosh and Lebron and back then I would have never though they would play together but I remember vividly having conversations with Kobe/Lakers fans saying Bosh wasnt the player Gasol was and there was no way they would make a hypothetical trade Gasol for Bosh... but now when we talk about that heat team people tend to view Bosh as a top 10 player.
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  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    I was a Bosh fan in his raptor days, ironically I liked both Bosh and Lebron and back then I would have never though they would play together but I remember vividly having conversations with Kobe/Lakers fans saying Bosh wasnt the player Gasol was and there was no way they would make a hypothetical trade Gasol for Bosh... but now when we talk about that heat team people tend to view Bosh as a top 10 player.
    Both Gasols were better than Bosh. Marc could anchor an entire defence. He lead Memphis to multiple playoffs runs. Bosh never did that as the best player on his team, never even got out the first round.

    And Pau was just way better. No need to explain there.

    Bosh has never been a top 10 player. Maybe just that one month in neveruary lol

    Bosh was perfect in his role in Miami. Honestly it was suited for him. And they realized that by playing together in the olympics.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 01-17-2022 at 05:40 PM.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Both Gasols were better than Bosh. Marc could anchor an entire defence. He lead Memphis to multiple playoffs runs. Bosh never did that as the best player on his team, never even got out the first round.

    And Pau was just way better. No need to explain there.

    Bosh has never been a top 10 player. Maybe just that one month in neveruary lol

    Bosh was perfect in his role in Miami. Honestly it was suited for him. And they realized that by playing together in the olympics.
    With all the downplaying of him, prime Bosh would instantly be the 3rd best PF in the NBA (Giannis AD) and 6-7th best big man overall (Giannis AD Embiid Jokic Gobert, Towns?).

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    With all the downplaying of him, prime Bosh would instantly be the 3rd best PF in the NBA (Giannis AD) and 6-7th best big man overall (Giannis AD Embiid Jokic Gobert, Towns?).
    I mean that's also partially due to the shift in the game. The overall talent level at PF just isn't really there these days. I mean, the current 3rd best guy is maybe Randle or Sabonis and neither guy is really a needle mover at all either. That's assuming you don't include Durant and LeBron and those guys who are kind of defacto 4s these days.

    I probably take prime bosh over towns. But again, what is towns, a top 30 or so guy in the league?

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I mean that's also partially due to the shift in the game. The overall talent level at PF just isn't really there these days. I mean, the current 3rd best guy is maybe Randle or Sabonis and neither guy is really a needle mover at all either. That's assuming you don't include Durant and LeBron and those guys who are kind of defacto 4s these days.

    I probably take prime bosh over towns. But again, what is towns, a top 30 or so guy in the league?
    Yup there just isnít as many great bigs in todays game.

    Iím not sure I take Bosh over Towns. Itís a wash for me. I think towns is more gifted offensively. Maybe Bosh had the edge defensively.

    And I agree. Towns isnít exactly leading his team to success as a corner stone. But similarly to Bosh I think he could be a 2nd or 3rd fiddle on a contender.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    With all the downplaying of him, prime Bosh would instantly be the 3rd best PF in the NBA (Giannis AD) and 6-7th best big man overall (Giannis AD Embiid Jokic Gobert, Towns?).
    Would you agree though that Marc Gasol lead his teams to much more playoff success in a stronger conference as the best player of his team compared to Bosh?

    And itís hard to compare now. What is a 4 and what is a 5 in todays game? I feel like the lines are blurred. Would Bosh be a 4 or 5 today? Who are we comparing him too? The Embiids, Jokics, Towns, Vuc? Or Giannis, AD, Tatum, Bam, etc ?

    Is Lebron a 4 ? Is KD a 4?

    The era of positionless basketball is tough to compare to an era where Bosh grew. He came in the league with 4s like Duncan, KG, Dirk, Webber etc. but I feel like some of those guys would be a 5: in todays league. Probably all of them accept for Dirk.

    I dunno Iím confused with positions these days. Just being honest here
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 01-17-2022 at 11:53 PM.

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