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  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Then how can you say that the players are more skilled nowadays?

    There was no concept as "two way" player in the past, because that was the norm. If you weren't good at both ends, you didn't get a job. Even guys like Rodman, Mahorn, Bowen, Bobby Jones etc were really good at some particular ways on offense.

    Rick Mahorn was a 20ppg college player.
    Rodman was a 25/17 college player!
    Bruce Bowen wasn't that great, hence why he was undrafted, but he was still scoring double digits.

    Are colleges better at nurturing talent now? Or do they barely even get to see these players? Do they coach the players or just have them feature there for a year before they go to the NBA? Does the NBA benefit from not having players go to college as much?


    I ask again, whomever wants to answer this. Who are these "unskilled" players from the past that wouldn't have a job now?


    What you're talking about isn't really idealist, it's been the norm for 15 years in Europe until the teams run out of money and the talent runs to the USA before they mature because the money finally sounds very impressive.
    Iíve answered that question already. About more than half the Cs if not more.

    The pace is different, the role is different. What makes Turner a commodity that most teams want even though heís a role player? Itís his unique skill set of being able to run the floor, provide elite shot blocking, and spread the floor. How many players from the past have that combination of skillset? And Iím not saying Turner is super star here. Iím just saying today game asks different things of its bigs. Canít just clog the paint.

    How many Cs could shoot 3s like Embiid can and still do everything else that he does? Thatís a new breed of player imo. Especially at that level.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 01-20-2022 at 09:31 PM.

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    04/05 - 10/11 Prime Flash? Or post Lebron leaving Miami Wade??

    Prime Wade and Bosh would def be a nice tandem. Depends on their supporting cast, and what year? What does the rest of the east look like in this hypethical?

    Reason why Wade is the X factor is because he was a super star. He would move the needle we know that because we have hindsight. He won a ship as the main guy of his team.
    I'm clearly talking about the summer of 2010 here. That's when the first Super Team was formed.

  3. #408
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    As great as Mark Eaton is defensively, itís hard to imagine him being an upper level starter given his complete offensive ineptitude and his inability to move laterally or guard the pick and roll.

  4. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Obviously, you only read the first few paragraphs, the bottom 2/3 is entirely dedicated to role players and how they have to be well-rounded...
    Nope, the article says that finding them is not easy.

    You based your entire narrative on the fallacy that the NBA is better because all or most role players have these traits. They do not. That's why you name guys like this "elite role players".

    Patrick Beverley came to the NBA after being a scrub in Europe and he's considered one of these guys, at times considered one of the best defensive guards. This was very funny to us over here.

    NBA scrubs used to go to a harder-than-these-days European level and after getting settled and getting into it, they'd be pretty good over here. Nowadays, not only do the same level of players that are discarded from the NBA come over, even "better" ones get discarded as the NBA teams start to prefer more and more international talent, yet not even the better class of these "scrubs" don't cut it in Europe! Why is that? Europe regressed, yet the better players don't have as much impact as the 'worse' scrubs when Europe was filled with NBA ready talent that didn't even bother to make the leap over the Atlantic. I would find that fascinating finding out, but you'll soon dismiss it out of ignorance.

    And trust me, we see all type of US trained players over here. Some that are very good and just were unlucky with their NBA team, some that were hyped but are not all that, some that are bang average and the vast majority cannot do that much without their athleticism and a few genuine scrubs that don't have even that one single trait. And they were good to great in college.

    They just don't have the skills. It's actually blatant. Our basketball style barely changed, but the talent we get from the USA, not only increased in quantity, it has decreased in quality as well. And don't give me that the good ones prefer to go to the D/G league, the level is worse than Greek's 2nd tier league where Giannis was making his first steps.

  5. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Nope, the article says that finding them is not easy.

    You based your entire narrative on the fallacy that the NBA is better because all or most role players have these traits. They do not. That's why you name guys like this "elite role players".

    Patrick Beverley came to the NBA after being a scrub in Europe and he's considered one of these guys, at times considered one of the best defensive guards. This was very funny to us over here.

    NBA scrubs used to go to a harder-than-these-days European level and after getting settled and getting into it, they'd be pretty good over here. Nowadays, not only do the same level of players that are discarded from the NBA come over, even "better" ones get discarded as the NBA teams start to prefer more and more international talent, yet not even the better class of these "scrubs" don't cut it in Europe! Why is that? Europe regressed, yet the better players don't have as much impact as the 'worse' scrubs when Europe was filled with NBA ready talent that didn't even bother to make the leap over the Atlantic. I would find that fascinating finding out, but you'll soon dismiss it out of ignorance.

    And trust me, we see all type of US trained players over here. Some that are very good and just were unlucky with their NBA team, some that were hyped but are not all that, some that are bang average and the vast majority cannot do that much without their athleticism and a few genuine scrubs that don't have even that one single trait. And they were good to great in college.

    They just don't have the skills. It's actually blatant. Our basketball style barely changed, but the talent we get from the USA, not only increased in quantity, it has decreased in quality as well. And don't give me that the good ones prefer to go to the D/G league, the level is worse than Greek's 2nd tier league where Giannis was making his first steps.
    First Bolded: To be clear: Patrick Beverely averaged more PPG in 2012 in Europe than he ever averaged in the USA and won the 2012 Eurocup MVP. From my understanding, the Eurocup is sort of like the minor leagues of Europe (and correct me if I'm wrong).

    But you have Americans like Drew Goudelock who won the Eurocup MVP and then went on to play for several Euroleague teams and made the Euroleague All-League 2nd team while scoring 17 PPG. This was the Developmental league MVP who couldn't catch on to an NBA team and ended up doing very well in Europe.

    Second Bolded: You constantly talking about how Europe is better at basketball than the US is just really bizarre considering how bad Europe does against the US. You celebrate the one time the US didn't win Gold like it's your first born child.

    You realize the US has won over 95+% of it's games in international competition against their European counterparts right? Why do you think that is?

    I mean, you talk about all these international players not doing as well over before becoming superstars here, but Luke literally won an MVP in Europe and helped lead his team to the Euro title while being on the All-Tournament team. And he did all that at the age of 18. Had he chose to continue playing in Europe, he would overwhelmingly likely be the top player there. Ditto with Jokic, or Giannis, or any of the top European players here.

    As for Americans going over there, Here is a list I found real quick of the top Euroleague players of 2021-2022:

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...021-22-10-1/2/

    #3 is Shane Larkin, an American who washed out of the NBA
    #4 is Mike James (not the immortal Mike James), an American who washed out the NBA
    #7 is Edy Tavares, who also washed out the NBA
    #8 is Will Clyburn, an American who never even played in the NBA
    #9 is Cory Higgins, an American who washed out of the NBA

    In addition to them, #14, #15, #16, #20, #21, #22, #29, #30, #33, #34, #35, #42, #45, #49, and #50
    are all Americans who dropped out or were never in the NBA and are considered Top 100 in Europe (at least according to this list). #40 was Canadian and went to the US for college.

    That's 40% of the top 50 in the league being from the States, all who were absolutely nobodies in the NBA. If Americans are losing skills, how come so many go over there and do so well without being able to do so well here?

    Not to mention former NBA players like Nikola Mirotic, Jan Vesely, Sergio Rodriguez and Mario Hezonja were #2, #6, #26 and #27, and they certainly didn't light the NBA on fire and yet are considered some of the better players in Europe. Which again, if Europeans are so much better, how come so many Europeans who aren't very good here go over to Europe and become some of the upper echelon players in the league?


    I honestly want to understand your fixation on Europe being so much better at basketball when, by literally every measure except you, they are demonstrably worse.
    Last edited by valade16; 01-21-2022 at 02:10 AM.

  6. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I'm clearly talking about the summer of 2010 here. That's when the first Super Team was formed.
    Then no I think the Bulls and Celtics beat them. And whatever team Lebron would be on in this hypothetical because he was in his prime and dominating the east no matter what team he was on

  7. #412
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    What makes a "super team" vs. just a great team?

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: To be clear: Patrick Beverely averaged more PPG in 2012 in Europe than he ever averaged in the USA and won the 2012 Eurocup MVP. From my understanding, the Eurocup is sort of like the minor leagues of Europe (and correct me if I'm wrong).

    But you have Americans like Drew Goudelock who won the Eurocup MVP and then went on to play for several Euroleague teams and made the Euroleague All-League 2nd team while scoring 17 PPG. This was the Developmental league MVP who couldn't catch on to an NBA team and ended up doing very well in Europe.

    Second Bolded: You constantly talking about how Europe is better at basketball than the US is just really bizarre considering how bad Europe does against the US. You celebrate the one time the US didn't win Gold like it's your first born child.

    You realize the US has won over 95+% of it's games in international competition against their European counterparts right? Why do you think that is?

    I mean, you talk about all these international players not doing as well over before becoming superstars here, but Luke literally won an MVP in Europe and helped lead his team to the Euro title while being on the All-Tournament team. And he did all that at the age of 18. Had he chose to continue playing in Europe, he would overwhelmingly likely be the top player there. Ditto with Jokic, or Giannis, or any of the top European players here.

    As for Americans going over there, Here is a list I found real quick of the top Euroleague players of 2021-2022:

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...021-22-10-1/2/

    #3 is Shane Larkin, an American who washed out of the NBA
    #4 is Mike James (not the immortal Mike James), an American who washed out the NBA
    #7 is Edy Tavares, who also washed out the NBA
    #8 is Will Clyburn, an American who never even played in the NBA
    #9 is Cory Higgins, an American who washed out of the NBA

    In addition to them, #14, #15, #16, #20, #21, #22, #29, #30, #33, #34, #35, #42, #45, #49, and #50
    are all Americans who dropped out or were never in the NBA and are considered Top 100 in Europe (at least according to this list). #40 was Canadian and went to the US for college.

    That's 40% of the top 50 in the league being from the States, all who were absolutely nobodies in the NBA. If Americans are losing skills, how come so many go over there and do so well without being able to do so well here?

    Not to mention former NBA players like Nikola Jokic, Jan Vesely, Sergio Rodriguez and Mario Hezonja were #2, #6, #26 and #27, and they certainly didn't like the NBA on fire and yet are considered some of the better players in Europe. Which again, if Europeans are so much better, how come so many Europeans who aren't very good here go over to Europe and become some of the upper echelon players in the league?


    I honestly want to understand your fixation on Europe being so much better at basketball when, by literally every measure except you, they are demonstrably worse.
    Europeans think Evan Fournier is a bad ***


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  8. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    As great as Mark Eaton is defensively, itís hard to imagine him being an upper level starter given his complete offensive ineptitude and his inability to move laterally or guard the pick and roll.
    He was one who came to mind immediately.

  9. #414
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    Haven't I said many times that the quality of basketball players in Europe is dropping?
    The Americans that succeed there these days are usually ones that played in college.

    I talked about basketball style and the transition of quality. Pay attention to what I say and stop imagining things!

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    They just don't have the skills. It's actually blatant. Our basketball style barely changed, but the talent we get from the USA, not only increased in quantity, it has decreased in quality as well. And don't give me that the good ones prefer to go to the D/G league, the level is worse than Greek's 2nd tier league where Giannis was making his first steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Haven't I said many times that the quality of basketball players in Europe is dropping?
    The Americans that succeed there these days are usually ones that played in college.

    I talked about basketball style and the transition of quality. Pay attention to what I say and stop imagining things!
    Of course theyíve usually played in college, the overwhelming majority of players doÖ

    You definitely talked about how unskilled American players that come over are. You quite literally said the talent has decreased.

    Again, Iím imagining nothing. You say things and then act like you didnít. Stop.

  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Of course theyíve usually played in college, the overwhelming majority of players doÖ

    You definitely talked about how unskilled American players that come over are. You quite literally said the talent has decreased.

    Again, Iím imagining nothing. You say things and then act like you didnít. Stop.
    It has decreased.
    European talent also decreased. You've argued that the skill level increased yet no European team depends on American players that much and their effect is no greater than it was against tougher Euro talent that didn't look to leave the continent before they turned 21.

    I'm not saying that there aren't some dominant US talent. There is. It always was there. But it has not increased. There should be an inverse relationship between US and Euro talent yet there is barely any correlation to support your argument at all!
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 01-21-2022 at 05:57 AM.

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Of course he was a star. He was a borderline superstar, some say he was, other say he was just off.

    He was one of the 3 best players in free agency that year (discounting Nowitzki who just wanted to negotiate a better contract and wasn't really approached by other teams iirc) and all three of them ended up with the same team. One of which was considered the best player in the league, the other was debated between Kobe as 2nd best. All three were still in their prime. That is unprecedented and this is why it's always highlighted.

    Pretending as if Bosh was some useless turd that simply ended up with the Heat is what's pedantic and avoiding the situation. Who cares if he was a universal superstar or not? He was considered by many.

    Who cares if Paul George is considered a superstar by everyone? He probably is, but he doesn't need me and you and everyone to agree on it. Team him up with a couple of other top players and you have a "superteam".


    Would you build a team around Klay Thompson? What would you expect from that team?
    Would you build a team around Draymond Green? What would you expect from that team?
    I never pretended Chris Bosh "was some useless turd that simply ended up with the Heat" I said he was a very good basketball player, I said the Heat were a superteam, I said he was a star, just not a superstar.... stop exaggerating
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 01-21-2022 at 09:23 AM.
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  13. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    I never pretended Chris Bosh "was some useless turd that simply ended up with the Heat" I said he was a very good basketball player, I said the Heat were a superteam, I said he was a star, just not a superstar.... stop exaggerating
    who said anything about you?

  14. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    who said anything about you?
    you referenced PG which I was the only person to bring him up so you were obviously replying to my comment just without quoting it.

    Even if you weren't I dont think anyone thought of Chris Bosh as a useless turd... at least from my involvement in the convo
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 01-21-2022 at 09:40 AM.
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  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    you referenced PG which I was the only person to bring him up so you were obviously replying to my comment just without quoting it.

    Even if you weren't I dont think anyone thought of Chris Bosh as a useless turd... at least from my involvement in the convo
    Check the trail of the discussion. Do you see me quoting anyone? If you really wanna know, the comment was mostly directed towards mngopher35, who quoted someone else who included Paul George and Chris Bosh there [in response to you].

    Do you see me disagreeing with your position on Paul George there? Do you see me referencing it? Stop chasing windmills, man. It's not a warzone, it's not a black or white affair where everyone picks a side and defends it to the death. Just because some people do that it doesn't mean that everyone else does. Just because some people have fragile opinions that are based on the wind and need to cling on someone else's take (my so loved 3 stooges of PSD) doesn't mean that everyone behaves this way. And trust me, you don't want to take the side of the 3 stooges, you will end up being forced to disagree with everything they say after a while.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 01-21-2022 at 10:37 AM.

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