What makes a "super team" vs. just a great team?

[NYKalltheway]

It's lovely how Chris Bosh who was considered a superstar by all media, including ESPN, long before he joined the Heat, is now dismissed as one.

But let us elevate a luxury jump shooter in Klay Thompson to god status just to say that Curry & Durant weren't just a superstar duo. There was also an...enforcer in Draymond Green and a shooter in Klay Thompson there! Superteam!

But hell to the no, Lebron, Wade and Bosh, three franchise players for playoff teams, were not a super team. Sure, Bosh wasn't there every year, but he played for Toronto. He was the most sought after PF in a free agency including Amare and Boozer. But okay fanboys, have it your way.

I know it's just Bleacher Report, but this guy even had Bosh over Wade, #2 overall free agent in 2010.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...50-free-agents

These guys?
http://thehoopdoctors.com/2010/06/20...r-free-agents/

#3. Heat got #1, #2 and #3.

[valade16]

It's lovely how Chris Bosh who was considered a superstar by all media, including ESPN, long before he joined the Heat, is now dismissed as one.

But let us elevate a luxury jump shooter in Klay Thompson to god status just to say that Curry & Durant weren't just a superstar duo. There was also an...enforcer in Draymond Green and a shooter in Klay Thompson there! Superteam!

But hell to the no, Lebron, Wade and Bosh, three franchise players for playoff teams, were not a super team. Sure, Bosh wasn't there every year, but he played for Toronto. He was the most sought after PF in a free agency including Amare and Boozer. But okay fanboys, have it your way.

I think whether you consider him a superstar or "just" a star is largely a pedantic one; he was clearly considered among the better players in the league and was absolutely enough of a star to constitute a "super team."

If he wasn't a star, why did the media make such a big deal about him going with Bron and Wade to the Heat?

[NYKalltheway]

I think whether you consider him a superstar or "just" a star is largely a pedantic one; he was clearly considered among the better players in the league and was absolutely enough of a star to constitute a "super team."

If he wasn't a star, why did the media make such a big deal about him going with Bron and Wade to the Heat?

Of course he was a star. He was a borderline superstar, some say he was, other say he was just off.

He was one of the 3 best players in free agency that year (discounting Nowitzki who just wanted to negotiate a better contract and wasn't really approached by other teams iirc) and all three of them ended up with the same team. One of which was considered the best player in the league, the other was debated between Kobe as 2nd best. All three were still in their prime. That is unprecedented and this is why it's always highlighted.

Pretending as if Bosh was some useless turd that simply ended up with the Heat is what's pedantic and avoiding the situation. Who cares if he was a universal superstar or not? He was considered by many.

Who cares if Paul George is considered a superstar by everyone? He probably is, but he doesn't need me and you and everyone to agree on it. Team him up with a couple of other top players and you have a "superteam".


Would you build a team around Klay Thompson? What would you expect from that team?
Would you build a team around Draymond Green? What would you expect from that team?

[valade16]

Of course he was a star. He was a borderline superstar, some say he was, other say he was just off.

He was one of the 3 best players in free agency that year (discounting Nowitzki who just wanted to negotiate a better contract and wasn't really approached by other teams iirc) and all three of them ended up with the same team. One of which was considered the best player in the league, the other was debated between Kobe as 2nd best. All three were still in their prime. That is unprecedented and this is why it's always highlighted.

Pretending as if Bosh was some useless turd that simply ended up with the Heat is what's pedantic and avoiding the situation. Who cares if he was a universal superstar or not? He was considered by many.

Who cares if Paul George is considered a superstar by everyone? He probably is, but he doesn't need me and you and everyone to agree on it. Team him up with a couple of other top players and you have a "superteam".


Would you build a team around Klay Thompson? What would you expect from that team?
Would you build a team around Draymond Green? What would you expect from that team?

Probably about the same that Bosh gave the Raptors: a 1st round playoff exit team in the far weaker conference.

I don't know what the argument is in regards to the Warriors.

Is it that the Curry/Klay/Dray team was not a superteam? Or that the Curry/KD/Klay/Dray team was not?

[NYKalltheway]

Probably about the same that Bosh gave the Raptors: a 1st round playoff exit team in the far weaker conference.

I don't know what the argument is in regards to the Warriors.

Is it that the Curry/Klay/Dray team was not a superteam? Or that the Curry/KD/Klay/Dray team was not?

It was not build in the same way, and the way that Klay and Draymond are being hyped is similar to Pippen and Rodman or Grant or something. Trying to extrapolate a situation just to prove a point that's not there. The main difference is that the Bulls had worthy competition whereas the Warriors did not. But that was not because they colluded to create that team. Durant coming was overkill, and yes, it qualified as a super team, but pretending as if the 2010 Heat were not a cheat code attempt is fooling oneself. The Warriors between 2014-2016 were nothing alike, they were far closer to the Spurs dynasty, just a great team.

[valade16]

It was not build in the same way, and the way that Klay and Draymond are being hyped is similar to Pippen and Rodman or Grant or something. Trying to extrapolate a situation just to prove a point that's not there. The main difference is that the Bulls had worthy competition whereas the Warriors did not. But that was not because they colluded to create that team. Durant coming was overkill, and yes, it qualified as a super team, but pretending as if the 2010 Heat were not a cheat code attempt is fooling oneself. The Warriors between 2014-2016 were nothing alike, they were far closer to the Spurs dynasty, just a great team.

Obviously, the Bulls didn't have very worthy competition considering they won the most titles of any team in post-merger history and as I pointed out, had some of the largest preseason odds to win ever.

But I agree that the KD-Curry Warriors were a superteam, while I don't think the pre-KD Warriors were a superteam so much as, like you said, a great team ala the San Antonio Spurs.

I don't know who would say the Bron Heat weren't a superteam, because they are the quintessential superteam.

[smith&wesson]

Indeed, you have to be skilled and not one-dimensional, like you cannot be just a jump shooter. You also have to be standing at the right spot for the jump shot. Two skills in one!

Lol

Even then, I don’t value guys who are just jump shooters unless you have them off the bench because you can never have enough shooters. On the flip side I don’t just want a defender that can’t shoot either.

All around game, two way players, with good ball iq and team first mentality is what I value most. But that’s an idealist way of thinking. Everyone has those things in their wish list

[smith&wesson]

Of course he was a star. He was a borderline superstar, some say he was, other say he was just off.

He was one of the 3 best players in free agency that year (discounting Nowitzki who just wanted to negotiate a better contract and wasn't really approached by other teams iirc) and all three of them ended up with the same team. One of which was considered the best player in the league, the other was debated between Kobe as 2nd best. All three were still in their prime. That is unprecedented and this is why it's always highlighted.

Pretending as if Bosh was some useless turd that simply ended up with the Heat is what's pedantic and avoiding the situation. Who cares if he was a universal superstar or not? He was considered by many.

Who cares if Paul George is considered a superstar by everyone? He probably is, but he doesn't need me and you and everyone to agree on it. Team him up with a couple of other top players and you have a "superteam".


Would you build a team around Klay Thompson? What would you expect from that team?
Would you build a team around Draymond Green? What would you expect from that team?

He was not a super star bro. He was a really good player, an all star, but not a super star. A super star imo is a cornerstone, a franchise player. Bosh was not that. He was put in that position and put up nice stats, but it never resulted in winning anything. Not even a 2nd round appearance.

What he was, was a perfect compliment to Wade and Lebron and really that that was the right role for him. Again really good player. I liked Bosh, but def not a super star.

Did you think Love was a super star? Similarly he put up nice numbers in Minni. Does that make you a super star though? Inflated stats on a bad team? That’s what Bosh was in Toronto.

[valade16]

Lol

Even then, I don’t value guys who are just jump shooters unless you have them off the bench because you can never have enough shooters. On the flip side I don’t just want a defender that can’t shoot either.

All around game, two way players, with good ball iq and team first mentality is what I value most. But that’s an idealist way of thinking. Everyone has those things in their wish list

More to the point: the idea that the NBA is creating or has more one-dimensional players than before is erroneous. Here's a great article from a few years back that specifically talks about how, in the playoffs, being a one-trick pony, even if it's as a shooter, isn't enough. The defense is tailored to get those players to put the ball on the floor, and if they can't, the offense breaks down.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/5...-pascal-siakam

To be a quality role player in the NBA requires you to have a basketball IQ and be able to pass, shoot, put the ball on the floor, and defend.

[NYKalltheway]

Lol

Even then, I don’t value guys who are just jump shooters unless you have them off the bench because you can never have enough shooters. On the flip side I don’t just want a defender that can’t shoot either.

All around game, two way players, with good ball iq and team first mentality is what I value most. But that’s an idealist way of thinking. Everyone has those things in their wish list

Then how can you say that the players are more skilled nowadays?

There was no concept as "two way" player in the past, because that was the norm. If you weren't good at both ends, you didn't get a job. Even guys like Rodman, Mahorn, Bowen, Bobby Jones etc were really good at some particular ways on offense.

Rick Mahorn was a 20ppg college player.
Rodman was a 25/17 college player!
Bruce Bowen wasn't that great, hence why he was undrafted, but he was still scoring double digits.

Are colleges better at nurturing talent now? Or do they barely even get to see these players? Do they coach the players or just have them feature there for a year before they go to the NBA? Does the NBA benefit from not having players go to college as much?


I ask again, whomever wants to answer this. Who are these "unskilled" players from the past that wouldn't have a job now?


What you're talking about isn't really idealist, it's been the norm for 15 years in Europe until the teams run out of money and the talent runs to the USA before they mature because the money finally sounds very impressive.

[NYKalltheway]

He was not a super star bro. He was a really good player, an all star, but not a super star. A super star imo is a cornerstone, a franchise player. Bosh was not that. He was put in that position and put up nice stats, but it never resulted in winning anything. Not even a 2nd round appearance.

What he was, was a perfect compliment to Wade and Lebron and really that that was the right role for him. Again really good player. I liked Bosh, but def not a super star.

Did you think Love was a super star? Similarly he put up nice numbers in Minni. Does that make you a super star though? Inflated stats on a bad team? That’s what Bosh was in Toronto.

Do you think that Wade & Bosh at Miami, without Lebron, is a contender? Assume that Lebron doesn't leave Cleveland for the sake of discussion and the Heat do not get a 3rd star with all that cap space, not even Joe Johnson, but maybe someone like Ray Felton or Al Harrington and some roster fillers.

Are they one of the few teams to beat in the East or not?

[NYKalltheway]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/5...-pascal-siakam

To be a quality role player in the NBA requires you to have a basketball IQ and be able to pass, shoot, put the ball on the floor, and defend.

That article goes a very long way to say that elite players can do a lot of things whereas mediocre players that cannot shoot don't get you far. Nothing there to do with role players other than naming a few names for the sake of attracting readers' interest.

[valade16]

Then how can you say that the players are more skilled nowadays?

There was no concept as "two way" player in the past, because that was the norm. If you weren't good at both ends, you didn't get a job. Even guys like Rodman, Mahorn, Bowen, Bobby Jones etc were really good at some particular ways on offense.

Rick Mahorn was a 20ppg college player.
Rodman was a 25/17 college player!
Bruce Bowen wasn't that great, hence why he was undrafted, but he was still scoring double digits.

Are colleges better at nurturing talent now? Or do they barely even get to see these players? Do they coach the players or just have them feature there for a year before they go to the NBA? Does the NBA benefit from not having players go to college as much?


I ask again, whomever wants to answer this. Who are these "unskilled" players from the past that wouldn't have a job now?

What you're talking about isn't really idealist, it's been the norm for 15 years in Europe until the teams run out of money and the talent runs to the USA before they mature because the money finally sounds very impressive.

This is just blatantly not true. Kiki Vandeweghe was an out and out sieve defensively. Calvin Murphy was terrible at it (to be fair, his size prohibited him from being a top tier defender regardless), Drazen Petrovic was just terrible on that end, Allan Houston was not a good defender, in fact, there's an entire subsection of wings who were just bad defensively like him such as Wally Szczerbiak, Joe Johnson, etc. Alex English wasn't very good (to be fair, most of the Nuggets at that time simply didn't even play defense so it's hard to gauge whether he could have been good), George Gervin was good and at least tried, but he was so skinny he got pushed around often by bigger wings. Chris Mullin definitely wasn't a quality defender (and C-Webb and Kenny Smith even joked about his lack of defense on TNT), obviously Charles was not a high impact defender who would routinely eschew contact. Other big men like Tom Chambers, Spencer Haywood (though he was more of an effort, because when he deigned to try he was a quality defender), Adrian Dantley was so bad defensively (among other things) the Pistons literally had to trade him for Mark Aguirre for their title runs.

There were a flat out ton of players, even high quality ones, who were not great defenders back then. The idea they all were great defenders is absurd. Steve Kerr even talks about how he had to find a player to hide on defensively so he wouldn't get torched too bad.

As for Rick Mahorn averaging 20+ PPG in college, he played college ball at Hampton, a D-II school (at the time). He was not facing top quality competition, which explains his extreme dearth of scoring in the pros, and why he was a 2nd round pick despite being a 3x NAIA All-American.

Also, Bruce Bowen was good at literally one shot, the corner 3. And by good I mean slightly above average once you look at shooting numbers from the corner for all players, and the reason 90% of his points came from there is because he could do nothing else on offense so SA literally just parked him there to keep the help defender honest when double-teaming Duncan in the post. There are entire videos on Youtube dedicated to showing how terrible he was trying to put the ball on the floor, check them out, they're actually pretty funny.

[smith&wesson]

Do you think that Wade & Bosh at Miami, without Lebron, is a contender? Assume that Lebron doesn't leave Cleveland for the sake of discussion and the Heat do not get a 3rd star with all that cap space, not even Joe Johnson, but maybe someone like Ray Felton or Al Harrington and some roster fillers.

Are they one of the few teams to beat in the East or not?

04/05 - 10/11 Prime Flash? Or post Lebron leaving Miami Wade??

Prime Wade and Bosh would def be a nice tandem. Depends on their supporting cast, and what year? What does the rest of the east look like in this hypethical?

Reason why Wade is the X factor is because he was a super star. He would move the needle we know that because we have hindsight. He won a ship as the main guy of his team.

[valade16]

That article goes a very long way to say that elite players can do a lot of things whereas mediocre players that cannot shoot don't get you far. Nothing there to do with role players other than naming a few names for the sake of attracting readers' interest.

Obviously, you only read the first few paragraphs, the bottom 2/3 is entirely dedicated to role players and how they have to be well-rounded...