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  1. #8746
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    If Hart is good enough to make passing on Ayton in a reasonable trade we hit the jackpot. I hope so.


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    Whatís ďreasonableĒ? Unless Randle is going, and we are moving Mitch, either in that deal, or something else, and we donít give up much else, I donít want anything to do with it. Thatís pretty much the only way Iíd see it making sense

    Even then, Iíd only do it for the subtractions. Not because I want him

  2. #8747
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Atyon is improving and itís generally thought he is somewhat underutilized. So far heís played 35 playoff games and averages 16 and 11 on 65% from the floor and 70% from the line. Heís also an elite defender. Thinking he makes the Knicks better and could be a building block isnít a slight to Mitch or Hartenstein.


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    do you have any evidence of this? That's not what PHO fans think.

  3. #8748
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    do you have any evidence of this? That's not what PHO fans think.
    There are those that will never let him live down not being Luka or Trey. The Suns were a top 3 defense last year with him in the middle of it and no one else that has a paint presence. I think that is pretty good evidence. Individual defense stats are generally garage so I'm not going to look for them I would guess guys shoot below average against him at the rim and when defended by him. The Suns do have good perimeter guys but Ayton really is the only guy that can defend the basket and has shown himself to be good switching out for a guy that defends the paint the way he does. Highlights are just that but if you look below you will see a guy that has good mobility considering his size and paint presence. The press I've seen about his defense has been positive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGp16HM0hQ
    Last edited by ewing; Yesterday at 09:39 AM.
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  4. #8749
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Whatís ďreasonableĒ? Unless Randle is going, and we are moving Mitch, either in that deal, or something else, and we donít give up much else, I donít want anything to do with it. Thatís pretty much the only way Iíd see it making sense

    Even then, Iíd only do it for the subtractions. Not because I want him
    Mitch, Randle, and a couple of picks for Ayton and Shamet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  5. #8750
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    There are those that will never let him live down not being Luka or Trey. The Suns were a top 3 defense last year with him in the middle of it and no one else that has a paint presence. I think that is pretty good evidence. Individual defense stats are generally garage so I'm not going to look for them I would guess guys shoot below average against him at the rim and when defended by him. The Suns do have good perimeter guys but Ayton really is the only guy that can defend the basket and has shown himself to be good switching out for a guy that defends the paint the way he does. Highlights are just that but if you look below you will see a guy that has good mobility considering his size and paint presence. The press I've seen about his defense has been positive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGp16HM0hQ
    McGee was very good for them defensively. They have a bunch of good guys all over the court, which helps too

  6. #8751
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Mitch, Randle, and a couple of picks for Ayton and Shamet
    A couple of picks? Be more specific lol

    If youíre talking firsts, Iíd just use them to dump Randle, without taking on that salary

  7. #8752
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    There are those that will never let him live down not being Luka or Trey. The Suns were a top 3 defense last year with him in the middle of it and no one else that has a paint presence. I think that is pretty good evidence. Individual defense stats are generally garage so I'm not going to look for them I would guess guys shoot below average against him at the rim and when defended by him. The Suns do have good perimeter guys but Ayton really is the only guy that can defend the basket and has shown himself to be good switching out for a guy that defends the paint the way he does. Highlights are just that but if you look below you will see a guy that has good mobility considering his size and paint presence. The press I've seen about his defense has been positive.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGp16HM0hQ
    I mean PHO has alot of good defenders, CP3 is still a very smart and good defender, Mikal is DPOY type, Crowder was good defensively, so is CAM and Shamet...

    I've never heard anyone describe Ayton as an elite defender, to me that's always been his weakness. I mean he's decent, but I don't think he's at the level of Mitch or Hart defensively.

    Ayton only played 58 games and 29.5mpg, and when he was off court PHO's defense was better. So I'm not sure you can call him elite just b/c PHO as a team was.

  8. #8753
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    McGee was very good for them defensively. They have a bunch of good guys all over the court, which helps too
    McGee played 15 mins a game. Having good perimeter guys does help. He is also a big reason they are good. you don't like his "style". you've presented nothing else to support why you seem to think he's a negative asset and you would only take him if we were getting rid of something bad. He's 24, a two-way player, and one of the better bigs in the league.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  9. #8754
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    McGee played 15 mins a game. Having good perimeter guys does help. He is also a big reason they are good. you don't like his "style". you've presented nothing else to support why you seem to think he's a negative asset and you would only take him if we were getting rid of something bad. He's 24, a two-way player, and one of the better bigs in the league.
    I didnít say negative

    I said I donít want him at 30M. And I donít want him over what we have at that price. You keep picking at me, thatís all I said.

    We roll with what we have, and donít waste assets and money. Wait for the guys that you say will be available, that are worth it
    Last edited by ShadyOne; Yesterday at 09:58 AM.

  10. #8755
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I mean PHO has alot of good defenders, CP3 is still a very smart and good defender, Mikal is DPOY type, Crowder was good defensively, so is CAM and Shamet...

    I've never heard anyone describe Ayton as an elite defender, to me that's always been his weakness. I mean he's decent, but I don't think he's at the level of Mitch or Hart defensively.

    Ayton only played 58 games and 29.5mpg, and when he was off court PHO's defense was better. So I'm not sure you can call him elite just b/c PHO as a team was.
    They gave up less than one point more per 100 with him on and this was the first year Mitch had a positive defense on/off per 100 on defense. and the last time I checked 30 was a pretty high % out of 48 as is 59 out of 82. Like I said he was a big reason they were good. He's a good defender.
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  11. #8756
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    I didnít say negative

    I said I donít want him at 30M. And I donít want him over what we have at that price. You keep picking at me, thatís all I said.

    We roll with what we have, and donít waste assets and money. Wait for the guys that you say will be available, that are worth it
    I not picking on you. I don't want him at 30 calling him a negative asset. The only reason you've given is I don't like his style. At 24 his numbers, ability to be a key contributor on a really good team, and the fact that he looks like he could handle more offensively point to him being a positive asset. Like I said if Barrett and Brunson are reasonable an ascending Ayton is. I'd have to see more. Again I don't know how good he can pass out of the post or roll which will become more important with usage and I'd really like to extend his range but he is already an impressive player
    Last edited by ewing; Yesterday at 10:08 AM.
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  12. #8757
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I not picking on you. I don't want him at 30 calling him a negative asset. The only reason you've given is I don't like his style. At 24 his numbers, ability to be a key contributor on a really good team, and the fact that he looks like he could handle more offensively point to him being a positive asset. Like I said if Barrett and Brunson are reasonable an ascending Ayton is. I'd have to see more. Again I don't know how good he can pass out of the post or roll which will become more important with usage and I'd really like to extend his range but he is already an impressive player
    Heís a very good and very underrated passer imo.

  13. #8758
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I not picking on you. I don't want him at 30 calling him a negative asset. The only reason you've given is I don't like his style. At 24 his numbers, ability to be a key contributor on a really good team, and the fact that he looks like he could handle more offensively point to him being a positive asset. Like I said if Barrett and Brunson are reasonable an ascending Ayton is. I'd have to see more. Again I don't know how good he can pass out of the post or roll which will become more important with usage and I'd really like to extend his range but he is already an impressive player
    Itís not just ďI donít like his styleĒ

    I donít think heís as good as you do. Heís somewhat limited on both ends. Thereís a reason he doesnít have the ball more. Because heís not good enough to warrant taking the ball out of the other guys hands.

    Is he better than what we have, yes. Does he make us a contender, no. So we get out of a deal we donít want, to add an even bigger deal, that again puts us with multiple guys on big deals, with no real star? Whatís the point? And give up stuff to do it? I didnít want Mitch, but if he keeps improving, Iíd take him all day at half the money. And if Hart proves me right, Iíd take his skillset at dirt cheap for now, and whatever it is moving forward
    Last edited by ShadyOne; Yesterday at 10:34 AM.

  14. #8759
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    2021-2022 In Season Trade Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Itís not just ďI donít like his styleĒ

    I donít think heís as good as you do. Heís somewhat limited on both ends. Thereís a reason he doesnít have the ball more. Because heís not good enough to warrant taking the ball out of the other guys hands.

    Is he better than what we have, yes. Does he make us a contender, no. So we get out of a deal we donít want, to add an even bigger deal, that again puts us with multiple guys on big deals, with no real star? Whatís the point? And give up stuff to do it? I didnít want Mitch, but if he keeps improving, Iíd take him all day at half the money. And if Hart proves me right, Iíd take his skillset at dirt cheap for now, and whatever it is moving forward
    Isn't everyone somewhat limited on both sides of the ball? KL can't guard Joel. I guess he is somewhat limited on D. Ayton is good on both ends. How good is debatable. He does play with the best mid-range playmaker in basketball and the best mid-range scorer in basketball. A lot of people still think he was underutilized on that team. He'd definitely warrant higher usage here and pretty much anywhere else if not in Phx.

    Does he make us a contender? I don't think so. Neither would have Donovan Mitchell. I think he would make us a dangerous playoff team. I'm guessing you disagree but I don't know if Jalen, Grimes or Q, Barret, Obi, and Ayton is better or worse than Jalen, Mitchell, Barrett, Randle, and Mitch.
    Last edited by ewing; Yesterday at 01:28 PM.
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  15. #8760
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Isn't everyone somewhat limited on both sides of the ball? KL can't guard Joel. I guess he is somewhat limited on D. Ayton is good on both ends. How good is debatable. He does play with the best mid-range playmaker in basketball and the best mid-range scorer in basketball. A lot of people still think he was underutilized on that team. He'd definitely warrant higher usage here and pretty much anywhere else if not in Phx.

    Does he make us a contender? I don't think so. Neither would have Donovan Mitchell. I think he would make us a dangerous playoff team. I'm guessing you disagree but I don't know if Jalen, Grimes or Q, Barret, Obi, and Ayton is better or worse than Jalen, Mitchell, Barrett, Randle, and Mitch.
    I guess you can say whatever you want to fit your argument. By that definition, sure, everyone is limited, lol

    Basically, what Iím saying, is I donít want 30M on the books for Ayton for the foreseeable future. I donít see him as worth it, or enough of a difference maker to move what we have, to get him, and give up picks to do it. Thatís it. You disagree, thatís cool.

    If we wanted to just move Randle, and throw the pick or so youíre suggesting that way, and just take on a year of salary filler, Iíd do that, and keep Mitch. I didnít even want him, but most here swear heís a trade asset, so we should be able to move him easily on his own, right?

    And I know you discredit this, but we need an elite-ish level guy. Saving that cap room might pay off. I think Mitchell gets us a lot closer to being where we need to be, than Ayton, 100%

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