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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    But wouldn't you do that too after toiling away in Cleveland for 7 years with Mo Williams and a 33 yr old Antwaan Jamison as your best teammates?
    Fact is if you're comparing the greatest players MJ and LBJ and a lot of other greats, LBJ has an entire starting 5 and even a 6th man of HOF caliber players. MJ has an overrated Pippen, Rodman and that's about it. It's really not that close when you want to look at winning, especially when considering the amount of help they had...even less close when looking at skills. The only argument LBJ has is the longevity
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-30-2021 at 06:21 PM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    That's not true. You have to beat three other playoff teams over a 7-game series before you even get to the Finals. That's not an easy thing to accomplish. 30 teams every year don't make the Finals.


    Most stars only win playing with other stars. Jordan was no different. And I would hardly call those Cavs teams a "superteam."


    Pippen by all accounts is a top 50 all-time player, one of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history and one of the first "point forwards" in league history. Grant went 4-time All-Defense and was even an All-Star. He's unquestionably better than any player Lebron had in his first stint in Cleveland. The rest of the squad was role players, but good role players nontheless.


    I obviously disagree, but you know, people would actually maybe take your sports takes more seriously if you didn't say asinine things like "Leracist" all the time. If you don't like the guy, that's fine. But there's no room in good legitimate sports conversation for petty, childish ******** like that.
    Yeah but LBJ has an entire team of HOF players...MJ has Pippen and Rodman. It's not close when looking at who had more help. Pippen wasn't even an all-star in 2 of the 6 titles and MJ didn't have Rodman for his first 3 (and Rodman was aging and declining in the last one).

  3. #48
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    It's also funny how "failing to win any more titles won't count against LeBron" AND "winning more titles will cement him" are valid at the same time.

    Lol @ hypocrisy.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    It's also funny how "failing to win any more titles won't count against LeBron" AND "winning more titles will cement him" are valid at the same time.

    Lol @ hypocrisy.
    This...When others have made the title argument to put other players ahead of LBJ they say that doesn't matter but now it matters all of a sudden

  5. #50
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    LBJ is a great player and has been an incredibly durable player (likely the most durable ever), but he's not the GOAT. MJ has him beat by pretty much any metric and it becomes fairly notable when we factor in any kind of critical thinking to interpret those metrics (has him beat either way, but it's by even more than it appears when we actually stop and think about it)...and to be clear, I root for LBJ a lot more than I ever rooted for MJ, but you have to give credit where credit is due and MJ is the GOAT. He would've likely won 8 consecutive titles had he not stepped away from the game.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-30-2021 at 06:29 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I will note that is incredibly hypocritical of posters coming on here to say if LBJ wins another title he's the GOAT, when these same posters have been arguing for years how titles don't really factor in and have used that argument to argue for LBJ now being the GOAT. I said it from the start that most on here were not being objective and were instead just arguing whatever supported their narrative of LBJ being in the discussion of the GOAT. Now that it looks like LBJ has a shot at having won enough to get into the conversation, now you all want to factor in titles?? Cmon guys, stick to the arguments you've been making at least, which isn't very strong because MJ still has better numbers in just about any metric, especially when we scale those up based on era and rules.
    In calling out others' hypocrisy you also demonstrated your own. In our discussions you made it abundantly clear that you don't use stats because they aren't exact enough and yet now that there's a possibility LeBron could tie or surpass MJ in rings suddenly you're all about using stats.

    To be clear: if Bron wins another ring, will you push him up your list as you claimed you would?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    In calling out others' hypocrisy you also demonstrated your own. In our discussions you made it abundantly clear that you don't use stats because they aren't exact enough and yet now that there's a possibility LeBron could tie or surpass MJ in rings suddenly you're all about using stats.

    To be clear: if Bron wins another ring, will you push him up your list as you claimed you would?
    That's silly, because it should be clear why I'm doing that: Stats is the argument that everyone has pushed for LBJ being in this discussion and so it absolutely matters if that argument doesn't hold water and does not support this conclusion. You are correct that I do not factor in stats when comparing all-time greats like this because they aren't precise enough for making the necessary distinction (imo), but the point is that the stats don't support the conclusion of picking LBJ over MJ (which is the argument all of these guys have tried to use for decades now for putting LBJ in this discussion, but now that 6 titles is within sight they seem to be abandoning that argument in favor of the titles argument).

    Me pointing out the stats point is like if I say rings are how you decide among the greats (which I think it is to a large extent the way to do it), and then I used that to argue for Kobe over MJ and you come out and point out that MJ has more titles, that doesn't mean you're switching over to argue for titles over stats in assessing greats, you would simply be pointing out that my main argument wouldn't hold water, which is what I am doing here with this point about stats. I've said before that LBJ would need to win around 8 or 9 titles, all as being a superstar, to surpass MJ so to me it wouldn't really matter one way or the other if LBJ got to 6, because MJ has two 3-peats and was the best player in the league for all of them and had nowhere near as much help as LBJ has had and did it while playing significantly fewer years.

    And yes, if LBJ wins one more title while still a superstar I will put him into the top 3, behind Mj and Kareem.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-30-2021 at 08:04 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    There isn't really anything LBJ can do at this point to surpass MJ, short of playing another 5 years and remaining elite and winning another 3 titles...and even then, it would be more of LBJ wasn't better than MJ, he just had the longevity and a ton more help.
    A ton more help? Dude, MJ was on the some of the most star studded, deepest teams ever with what many consider to be the GOAT coach lol

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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    It's also funny how "failing to win any more titles won't count against LeBron" AND "winning more titles will cement him" are valid at the same time.

    Lol @ hypocrisy.
    Yes. You can't penalize LeBron for being great at an age/minute mileage that is the most/oldest of all time. Behind perhaps Kareem iirc?


    But you can give him credit. It's absolutely where he is. He can only add to his already absurd legacy.



    Or, you have to discredit MJ for doing nothing in Washington. Deal?

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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    A ton more help? Dude, MJ was on the some of the most star studded, deepest teams ever with what many consider to be the GOAT coach lol

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    How the heck do you figure? In 91 and 98 MJ was the only all-star on the team. Pippen was never top 5 in the league and was arguably not top 10 in any of the seasons they won a title (he might've just snuck in at 9 or 10 for most of those titles). Here, let me demonstrate: Let's pick the best players they've both played with and construct a team out of them:

    LBJ
    Kyrie
    Westbrook
    Wade
    Bosh
    AD
    Love

    MJ
    Armstrong
    Harper
    Pippen
    Rodman
    Grant
    Kukoc

    In one case, you essentially have a team that would potentially break the all-time wins record (LBJ's teammates). In the other case, you have a team that maybe can make it to the ECF, maybe. It's no contest dude.

    And I'm not penalizing LBJ for anything, I've held for many years that LBJ is not yet in the top 5 (but he's right on the cusp of getting in and cementing himself at #3) and he needs a little more to get in there. He simply hasn't done enough yet, imo, especially when you factor in the unprecedented amount of help he's had. What's funny is that I'm actually an LBJ fan more so than an MJ fan. I root for LBJ on a nightly basis and have often defended him in the laker forum when he's gotten bashed.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-30-2021 at 08:24 PM.

  11. #56
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    I mean, at the end of the day, no one is changing their mind. LBJ could win back to back mvps and back to back championships and the MJ fans will still say he's not as good.

    To me, it's a simple arguement. They are the two best players of all time and the order doesn't matter because they are essentially interchangeable. Jordan's absolute peak was probably better than Lebron's. Lebron's longevity and his insanely high level play so deep into his career (and adding in how many "extra" games he played with consistently deep playoff runs) is unheard of.

    I think the easiest way for me to think about it is if there was an all time draft and you could take anyone to build your franchise with from any era and magically transport them to one wierd hypothetical scenario, my ideal situation would be to have the 2nd pick and take whichever one is left and get a slightly better 2nd round pick.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    How the heck do you figure? In 91 and 98 MJ was the only all-star on the team. Pippen was never top 5 in the league and was arguably not top 10 in any of the seasons they won a title (he might've just snuck in at 9 or 10 for most of those titles). Here, let me demonstrate: Let's pick the best players they've both played with and construct a team out of them:

    LBJ
    Kyrie
    Westbrook
    Wade
    Bosh
    AD
    Love

    MJ
    Armstrong
    Harper
    Pippen
    Rodman
    Grant
    Kukoc

    In one case, you essentially have a team that would potentially break the all-time wins record (LBJ's teammates). In the other case, you have a team that maybe can make it to the ECF, maybe. It's no contest dude.

    And I'm not penalizing LBJ for anything, I've held for many years that LBJ is not yet in the top 5 (but he's right on the cusp of getting in and cementing himself at #3) and he needs a little more to get in there. He simply hasn't done enough yet, imo, especially when you factor in the unprecedented amount of help he's had. What's funny is that I'm actually an LBJ fan more so than an MJ fan. I root for LBJ on a nightly basis and have often defended him in the laker forum when he's gotten bashed.
    I don't even know what to say. I'm a life long bulls fan and those teams were stacked like crazy. It's a lot more than just looking at names on a roster lol. It's all relative.


    The NBA has always been super team driven.


    Also, MJ didn't run the offense OR defense like LeBron has. Not even close in terms of bball iq. He wasn't a coach-lite.


    His conference was a bit better but amusingly overrated. People look at big names, again, and think it means something.


    His finals comp was significantly more difficult, in fact the Bulls didn't face much in the finals. The east was the tougher road.


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    Last edited by blams; 10-30-2021 at 08:51 PM.

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    I don't even know what to say. I'm a life long bulls fan and those teams were stacked like crazy. It's a lot more than just looking at names on a roster lol. It's all relative.


    The NBA has always been super team driven.


    Also, MJ didn't run the offense OR defense like LeBron has. Not even close in terms of bball iq. He wasn't a coach-lite.


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    But l literally just named the best players on those Bulls teams and they didnt even all play together during the same years. The Bulls were not a super team. They were a great team, but it wasn't because they had insane talent, it was because they had really good talent and everyone played their part very well. LBJ does run the offense, but he never really ran the defense. He was only a great defender for a somewhat short period of time, especially when comparing him to other greats. The b-ball IQ thing is highly debatable. MJ was great at getting himself high quality looks off the ball. Other than longevity, I don't really see what argument can be made in favor of LBJ over MJ
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-30-2021 at 10:21 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    I don't even know what to say. I'm a life long bulls fan and those teams were stacked like crazy. It's a lot more than just looking at names on a roster lol. It's all relative.


    The NBA has always been super team driven.


    Also, MJ didn't run the offense OR defense like LeBron has. Not even close in terms of bball iq. He wasn't a coach-lite.


    His conference was a bit better but amusingly overrated. People look at big names, again, and think it means something.


    His finals comp was significantly more difficult, in fact the Bulls didn't face much in the finals. The east was the tougher road.


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    Cmon my man, did you just say MJ's conference was a bit better?? LBJ played in a historically weak Eastern conference. It was so bad that they were seriously considering changing the playoff formatting to just allow the top 16 teams in the league into the playoffs (because the East was putting out maybe 2-4 playoff caliber teams a year and with the exception of LBJ's team most if not all of those would be easy first round outs in the west). Notice how no one is talking about switching the playoff formatting anymore? Yeah, it's because the East isn't absurdly horrible anymore, but it was for a very long time (almost through most of LBJ's time out there). It's true that LBJ has faced tougher finals competition, but it's not as big of a gap as you're making it out to be, but either way it's tougher to face 3 or 4 tough teams each year than it is to essentially face one tough team in the finals.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-30-2021 at 09:08 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    But l literally just named the best players on those Bulls teams and they didnt even all play together during the same years. The Bulls were not a super team. They were a great team, but it wasn't because they had insane talent, it was because they had really good talent and everyone played their part very well. LBJ does run the offense, but he never really ran the defense. He was only a great defender for a somewhat short period of time, especially when comparing him to other greats. The b-ball IQ thing is highly debatable. MJ was great at getting himself high quality looks off the ball. Other than longevity, I don't really see what argument can be made in favor of LBJ over MJ
    not being a "super team" does not make them less talented lol. Super team just means there are 3 stars. That's it.


    The heat were desolate aside from the big 3. Past their prime big names signed with them year to year obviously. MJ had better teams overall (Era considered). I don't care that the Heat had 3 hall of famers. A lot of NBA teams did and will continue to. No cop outs about the 90s being better.

    The Bulls won titles because they had more talent then every other team , and the best coach as well.


    Use stats to prove MJ is better. Not bull**** about him carrying his teams more lol, especially when LeBron is his system. He runs the offense. Runs the defense. Coaches the damn team a lot of the time. Not bull**** comparing strength of conference, or making it seem like MJ had ungodly teams to go against . None of it means anything.
    Prove MJ was a better teammate, a better passer, a better driver, a higher bball iq player (he didn't make those around him better in the most provable way there is- passing , being great and making others want to be great is not an actual measurable thing so it's bull****)


    It isn't black and white and will never be. MJ was great and had the deck stacked in his favor more than LBJ did. When did MJ play the Warriors? When did he bring a d league team to 6 games against a warriors team? When did he come back from down 3-1 against the best team ever ?




    MJ did a lot. LeBron did a lot. It's close. I believe LeBron's overall game- all time great bball IQ and passer, very good and all time versatile defender , beloved teammate and still on the list of most unstoppable scorers- impacted the game more than MJ being the most unstoppable scorer in NBA history and a great defender, while being a hated teammate and ball hog.


    He would have never won a ring if Phil didn't come in and have him play team ball in the triangle imo. That changed his career.


    LBJ never had an impact of an all time great coach like that.




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    Last edited by blams; 10-31-2021 at 01:06 AM.

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