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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    He was young, immature, and arrogant and he got humbled, he's far from the first to have that happen.

    You don't think he's changed? The number one thing players say about him is how hard he works. I think what happened in Miami made him realize how hard it is to actually win in the NBA, and he is much more mature as a result.
    Not to mention ESPN wanted that photo op Decision thing for a charity publicity stunt. He was supposed to turn down a charity gig? And then they had a pep rally and people lost their ****. And with everything over the top already they were supposed to give the olí ďHopefully, if we play hard and stay healthy, we can hopefully bring home a title for you fine folks here in Miami. Hopefully.Ē ?

    People just love to ***** and moan.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    If you only cared about your favorite playerís team when he faced the Knicks or the Bulls in the playoffs your just not a big fan of watching basketball. I think thatís the difference
    Or I didnít care for the team?

    But youíre right Iím probably not a big fan of basketball. Ouch.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He went on a cross county tour, promised 7 titles, then ran out on the team after getting smacked in the finals. Heís also the poster boy for collusion. It not just that he left the Cavs and he not the only player that deserves criticism


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Youíre right he probably should have went out with his pride like Ewing lol

    every single time Lebron became a free agent, Knicks fans were all salivating at thought of him signing in NYÖ. Donít give me this nonesense. The man dominated the east for like 9 straight trips to the finals. Has 4 rings leading 3 different teams. Youíre still hung up what he said to rile up a crowd in Miami ??
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 11-18-2021 at 02:12 AM.

  4. #484
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    Did Jordan ever go up against teams like the dynasty Spurs or the dynasty Warriors?

    Playing devils advocate I think Jordan would have been even better in this era but I do think that Lebron did face some stiffer competition.

    The toughest team Jordan played against in the finals was probably the Jazz and they were really good no doubt. But weíre they Spurs or Warriors Dynasty good?

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Did Jordan ever go up against teams like the dynasty Spurs or the dynasty Warriors?
    Jordan went against the 80s Boston Celtics who are far superior than anything that the early 2010s Spurs or pre-Durant 2010s Warriors had. And they were allowed to elbow him, push him, elbow him and torture him. And they had Larry Bird, one of the best 5 players of all time. I'm not even sure if the Durant Warriors could go against the Celtics back in the 80s, but they're the only team in the previous decade that could honestly make a Finals run from either conference in the 80s.

    He also played against Magic's Lakers. And against the Pistons. Even the late 80s/early 90s Cavs were a very strong side that you don't see around these days.

    How many teams did the Warriors face that would have won more than 50 games during Jordan's runs? Back in the day of no "load management", where every game mattered and players only sat down when they tormented the other side enough, rather than stick around in the 4th quarter for stat padding.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Jordan went against the 80s Boston Celtics who are far superior than anything that the early 2010s Spurs or pre-Durant 2010s Warriors had. And they were allowed to elbow him, push him, elbow him and torture him. And they had Larry Bird, one of the best 5 players of all time. I'm not even sure if the Durant Warriors could go against the Celtics back in the 80s, but they're the only team in the previous decade that could honestly make a Finals run from either conference in the 80s.

    He also played against Magic's Lakers. And against the Pistons. Even the late 80s/early 90s Cavs were a very strong side that you don't see around these days.

    How many teams did the Warriors face that would have won more than 50 games during Jordan's runs? Back in the day of no "load management", where every game mattered and players only sat down when they tormented the other side enough, rather than stick around in the 4th quarter for stat padding.
    I know about the struggles Jordan faced in his first 6 years.

    Iím asking about the ďfinalsĒ

  7. #487
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    LeBron James' legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Youíre right he probably should have went out with his pride like Ewing lol

    every single time Lebron became a free agent, Knicks fans were all salivating at thought of him signing in NYÖ. Donít give me this nonesense. The man dominated the east for like 9 straight trips to the finals. Has 4 rings leading 3 different teams. Youíre still hung up what he said to rile up a crowd in Miami ??
    Did I say he wasnít a great player? You didnít even watch your fav player. your a bigger fan of Steven A Smith and drama then you are of basketball


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Did I say he wasnít a great player? You didnít even watch your fav player. your a bigger fan of Steven A Smith and drama then you are of basketball


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    lol why are you baiting me I donít get it? Is it that hard to have a normal conversation?

    Iím sharing my perspective with you. I understand you like home grown teams. Thatís fair enough. But do you not get my point that thereís other ways to construct a championship team? Iím simply stating that once a player becomes a free agent they are free to go where they want. They donít necessarily have to remain loyal to the team that drafted them.

    I donít think thereís any shame in a player leaving for greener pastures if it benefits their career.. I didnít even blame Vince Carter when he Left the raptors to play for the Nets. I didnít blame Bosh for leaving the raptors to play for the Heat. The franchise was a joke at the time and they wanted to compete. I get it.

    And yes I loved Reggie but I never cared to route for the Pacers. I felt the same way about Pavel Bure but never cared for the Vancouver Canucks. You want to make fun of that, go ahead lol itís just so ridiculously petti. I did watch Reggie cook your team in the playoffs though.

    Lol at SAS, thatís one guy I wouldnít mind seeing get candle cultured. Iím more of. Shannon Sharpe guy atleast he is entertaining
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 11-18-2021 at 01:46 PM.

  9. #489
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    LeBron James' legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    lol why are you baiting me I donít get it? Is it that hard to have a normal conversation?

    Iím sharing my perspective with you. I understand you like home grown teams. Thatís fair enough. But do you not get my point that thereís other ways to construct a championship team? Iím simply stating that once a player becomes a free agent they are free to go where they want. They donít necessarily have to remain loyal to the team that drafted them.

    I donít think thereís any shame in a player leaving for greener pastures if it benefits their career.. I didnít even blame Vince Carter when he Left the raptors to play for the Nets. I didnít blame Bosh for leaving the raptors to play for the Heat. The franchise was a joke at the time and they wanted to compete. I get it.

    And yes I loved Reggie but I never cared to route for the Pacers. I felt the same way about Pavel Bure but never cared for the Vancouver Canucks. You want to make fun of that, go ahead lol itís just so ridiculously petti. I did watch Reggie cook your team in the playoffs though.

    Lol at SAS, thatís one guy I wouldnít mind seeing get candle cultured. Iím more of. Shannon Sharpe guy atleast he is entertaining
    Because you are arguing with yourself and losing. I've never said teams should be homegrown and said repeatedly players have every right to use a free agency. Some have gone beyond that that is what I take issue with but you keep returning to the argument you are having with yourself using bad examples or unrelated info to support it. Btw Shannon Sharp is a moron and we beat them more then they beat us
    Last edited by ewing; 11-18-2021 at 03:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I know about the struggles Jordan faced in his first 6 years.

    Iím asking about the ďfinalsĒ
    Name me one of those teams that wouldn't win 60+ games in any given season in the Eastern Conference during the 2005-2018 period.

  11. #491
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    As for playoffs, I know it's not the fairest tool but I don't have the pre-playoffs odds, so I'll use the pre-season odds for this one. If you have the proper playoff odds, please do share.

    Lebron's teams beating a team that had higher or similar [preseason] odds in playoffs or losing to a team with less odds:
    Pistons 2007 win (+800 for Pistons, +900 for Cavs)
    Celtics 2008 loss (+600 for Cavs, +1000 for Celtics)
    Magic 2009 loss (+1000 for Cavs, +2000 for Magic)
    Celtics 2010 loss (+300 for Cavs, +450 for Celtics)
    Mavericks 2011 loss (+175 for Heat, +2000 for Mavericks)
    Thunder 2012 win (+225 for Heat, +700 for Thunder)
    Spurs 2014 loss (+200 for Heat, +1200 for Spurs)
    Warriors 2015 loss (+275 for Cavs, +2800 for Warriors)
    Warriors 2016 win (+280 for Cavs, +480 for Warriors)
    Rockets 2020 win (+450 for Lakers, +700 for Rockets)
    Suns 2021 loss (+275 for Lakers, +4000 for Suns)



    2013 chip odds, +225 for Heat, +1600 for Spurs. Got the ring.
    2017 chip odds, +385 for Cavs, -128 for Warriors.
    2018 chip odds, +515 for Cavs, -187 for Warriors.
    2020 chip odds, +450 for Lakers, +6000 for Heat. Got the ring.


    This feels rather underwhelming.


    When it comes to predicting results, I trust the bookies. Maybe they weren't as good in the past, which I doubt, but you had more open races in the past and it was more balanced throughout the league, with more teams that could challenge. So this "we always had super teams" rhetoric is rather baseless when you review the odds. Even if you don't feel like they were good in the past, they are typically spot on in the past 20 years. And they suggest that Lebron's teams do not overcome strong adversaries, they manage to lose to much weaker sides and have benefited from facing teams that were not expected to go that far.

    You don't want to see this comparison with Michael Jordan's teams. It's just not fair. Heck, you don't want to see how Reggie Miller fared on this aspect either, it should ground a lot of views, but you cannot explain what light is to those who have their eyes shut.

    These are very... human returns. It's not something that would shut people up when it comes to Lebron, it's actually the opposite. It should shut his fans up, because this is not a good return. It might be unfair to have a constant expectation of delivering wins, but this is the route Lebron chose and he cannot deliver, yet he is praised as if he has achieved the impossible. To anyone who reads into this, this is failure. You obviously cannot consider obtaining 4 championships a failure, but if your quest is to the best ever, you have failed if this is how you ended up here.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 11-18-2021 at 03:49 PM.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    When it comes to predicting results, I trust the bookies. Maybe they weren't as good in the past, which I doubt, but you had more open races in the past and it was more balanced throughout the league, with more teams that could challenge. So this "we always had super teams" rhetoric is rather baseless when you review the odds. Even if you don't feel like they were good in the past, they are typically spot on in the past 20 years. And they suggest that Lebron's teams do not overcome strong adversaries, they manage to lose to much weaker sides and have benefited from facing teams that were not expected to go that far.
    Why do you keep spouting absolute nonsense?

    More open races? The Lakers went to the Finals 7 out of 8 years from 82-89. The Celtics went to 4 straight Finals from 84-87. Not to mention the Bulls winning 6 titles in the 90's.

    How many teams legitimately challenged the 80's Lakers or Celtics? From 82-89 the Lakers had 9 playoff series sweeps, including 3 in the WCFs.

    If you want to talk about preseason Odds, here were the Lakers and Celtics ranks for playoff odds:

    85: Celtics 1st, Lakers T-1st
    86: Lakers 1st, Celtics 2nd
    87: Celtics 1st, Lakers 3rd (behind Houston)
    88: Lakers 1st, Celtics 2nd
    89: Lakers 1st, Celtics 5th

    So the bookies were absolutely sure of one thing: Either the Lakers and Celtics were always going to win.

    It was the same thing for MJ's Bulls:

    92: Bulls 1st
    93: Bulls 1st
    96: Bulls 1st
    97: Bulls 1st
    98: Bulls 1st


    If you had so many more teams that could challenge, how come bookies never ever thought they'd actually win?

    Only NYKalltheway would see a stretch absolutely dominated by the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls and go "now that was parity".

  13. #493
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    I mean, the mental gymnastics you have to do not to recognize LeBron's all time greatness and his place near the top among all the greats, (top 3 at worst) means that you don't have a natural predisposition for arguments centered on both statistical evidence and tape study. They're simply not worth engaging with, they live in their own reality

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I mean, the mental gymnastics you have to do not to recognize LeBron's all time greatness and his place near the top among all the greats, (top 3 at worst) means that you don't have a natural predisposition for arguments centered on both statistical evidence and tape study. They're simply not worth engaging with, they live in their own reality
    The only mental gymnastics in the thread is Valade taking one aspect of my post and twisting it to fit his narrative and then pretend that he's responded to it.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    The only mental gymnastics in the thread is Valade taking one aspect of my post and twisting it to fit his narrative and then pretend that he's responded to it.
    I focus on the parts that are blatantly wrong. If someone starts listing off types of trees and says maple, cherry, oak, douglas fir, and the golden gate bridge, you're rightly going to focus on how incorrect listing the golden gate bridge as a tree is.

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