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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I'm fine with MJ/LeBron/Kareem/Russell all interchangeable as the GOAT
    One of those dont belong in my opinion. I wont argue against lebron/MJ/Kareem though

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    One of those dont belong in my opinion. I wont argue against lebron/MJ/Kareem though
    How many minutes of your life have you actually spent watching Russell? How many full games?

    Real question.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    Lebron is the goat... Another title would just further cement it. The finals teams he beats smacks the teams jordan faced and outside of wade/bosh he never had a roster the likes of which jordan had throughout his entire career.
    No he isn't. Dude won bronze medals for America, lost 3 times in a row with HCA as well. Jordan never lost with HCA. Jordan never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp in the NBA either. Lebron played with Shaq, Wade, Westbrook to name a few.

    Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him and had to leave in order to win and then came back to stack the deck and still needed a suspension to win. Hakeem won more titles for a franchise that never won prior to them arrival as well as Isiah Thomas than Lebron did.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    No he isn't. Dude won bronze medals for America, lost 3 times in a row with HCA as well. Jordan never lost with HCA. Jordan never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp in the NBA either. Lebron played with Shaq, Wade, Westbrook to name a few.

    Lebron also only won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him and had to leave in order to win and then came back to stack the deck and still needed a suspension to win. Hakeem won more titles for a franchise that never won prior to them arrival as well as Isiah Thomas than Lebron did.
    Is this some kind of joke? Shaq was 37 and missed near half the season with injuries.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Is this some kind of joke? Shaq was 37 and missed near half the season with injuries.
    he is only on this site still to pop in and troll lebron because jordan.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    How many minutes of your life have you actually spent watching Russell? How many full games?

    Real question.
    watched a ton of him on youtube and reddit posts constantly post games of russ/magic and so on down the list of old games. Its no real slight on him he just isnt on jordan/lebron/kareem level... same as wilt.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    watched a ton of him on youtube and reddit posts constantly post games of russ/magic and so on down the list of old games. Its no real slight on him he just isnt on jordan/lebron/kareem level... same as wilt.
    Didn't answer completely directly, but I doubt it's enough to take such a strong stance on a guy who so many said could have put up sexy stats if he wanted, but just wanted to win, and did.

    Not saying you may not be right, I just don't see how someone who watched a few YouTube clips says with any certainty he doesn't belong. From all indications, sounds like you also didn't even get to watch Jordan in his prime live.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Didn't answer completely directly, but I doubt it's enough to take such a strong stance on a guy who so many said could have put up sexy stats if he wanted, but just wanted to win, and did.

    Not saying you may not be right, I just don't see how someone who watched a few YouTube clips says with any certainty he doesn't belong. From all indications, sounds like you also didn't even get to watch Jordan in his prime live.
    No way he saw Jordan live

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    watched a ton of him on youtube and reddit posts constantly post games of russ/magic and so on down the list of old games. Its no real slight on him he just isnt on jordan/lebron/kareem level... same as wilt.
    Highlights don't do him justice.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Is this some kind of joke? Shaq was 37 and missed near half the season with injuries.
    And he mentioned Westbrook, which is even the bigger joke to me, because that's a whopping 5-game sample size so far, and it's gone quite poorly. Like if you're going to troll, at least troll well.


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Why must this keep coming up? For some he was number 1 10 years ago, for some he'll never be. One more stat isn't going to make the difference for most.
    Pretty much this. One singular stat shouldn't be the determining factor. At this point, Lebron's accomplished so much that he either is or isn't your No. 1 guy. Barring some just insane levels of longevity and success, like him pulling a Brady and winning titles and MVPs into his 40s, I just don't see how Lebron can really do anything to put him over Jordan in some people's eyes.

    And the "most points" thing is really just a longevity argument, but if you put a lot of stock in longevity, then Lebron has probably already surpassed Jordan in your eyes. He's already played in way more regular season and playoff games. He's got more All-NBA and All-Star appearances and has surpassed MJ on basically every total stat category I can think of. Why should him surpassing Kareem in a total stat help him surpass Jordan as your all-time No. 1?

    Personally, I flip flop pretty regularly on who I think is No. 1, but most days it's Jordan. In terms of peak performance and postseason prowess (which I put more stock in), I'm not sure there's a greater athlete in the history of any professional team sport. Lebron's overall jack-of-all-trade game and staying power in the league combined with his longevity make a damn good case as the No. 1 all-time guy, which is why I never fight especially hard when someone makes that case. I'm 100% on board with the 1A/1B take.


  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    Lebron is the goat... Another title would just further cement it. The finals teams he beats smacks the teams jordan faced and outside of wade/bosh he never had a roster the likes of which jordan had throughout his entire career.
    lol this is the kind of absurd revisionist history that just annoys me.

    Jordan had to go through the Pistons, Knicks, Pacers just to get to the finals - all featuring hall of famers, and all physical as all hell. The east was the superior conference when Jordan played.

    LeBron spent the majority of his career in the weaker conference. He had to bail on the Cavs and join Bosh/Wade just to get by the banged up Celtics. And even there he went 2 of 4, absolutely shrunk in the moment against Dallas in year 1, got blitzed in year 4 by San Antonio, and was bailed out by Ray Allen and Pop taking Duncan off the court in year 3.

    Regarding the players on his team? I mean look - nobody, and I mean nobody, thought Scottie was the second best player on the court in any of those eastern conference battles at the time. As years have gone by Scottie's standing has been elevated. But show me someone who, at the time, would have traded Ewing, Reggie, Isiah, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Clyde Drexler, or Charles Barkley straight up for Scottie Pippen and I'll show you a liar.

    Horace Grant was the third best player on the first run, and Rodman? Sure. Great rebounder, great defender - made Draymond Green look like Wilt Chamberlain on offense. Just utterly useless on the offensive side of the ball. After that it was a rotating cast of role players, not former all stars at the end of their run like Bron has.

    Also... outside of Wade/Bosh? lol he won two of his rings and had 4 of his finals appearances with Wade/Bosh. How can you just say "oh, besides them"?

    His Lakers bubble title had AD.

    I'll give you Cleveland coming back from 3-1. But he did have Kyrie and Kevin Love on that team - two all NBA players. They were hardly chumps.

    You want to argue that LeBron is better? Fine. I disagree but if that's your opinion? Fine. I'm not going to try and change your mind.

    But to say stuff like "Jordan didn't beat anyone" is just plain ignorant to the facts. Be better.
    Last edited by Headache 21; 10-28-2021 at 11:13 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Headache 21 View Post
    lol this is the kind of absurd revisionist history that just annoys me.

    Jordan had to go through the Pistons, Knicks, Pacers just to get to the finals - all featuring hall of famers, and all physical as all hell. The east was the superior conference when Jordan played.
    So while I agree the East still had a ton of talent in the 90s, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this take that the East was superior.

    If we go from 90-98, here are how many teams respectively had at least 50 wins in each conference:

    90-91: 6 in West, 3 in East
    91-92: 4 in each
    92-93: 3 in East, 4 in West
    93-94: 4 in East, 6 in West
    94-95: 4 in each
    95-96: 3 in each
    96-97: 6 in East, 4 in West
    97-98: 5 in each

    So if we were keeping score here, that's a 3-1-4 record for the West over that stretch, but that record includes Chicago. If we take the Bulls out, it's a 7-1 record. And that's just a very simple exercise. If we took the records of those top teams, their SRS, point differential, etc., the West would inevitably show up as the strongest conference. If you were to take any reasonable list of the top 50 players of all-time or even just the top players of the 90s, I guarantee there are more names from the West (Hakeem, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Robinson, Payton, Drexler) than East (Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Ewing).

    Now you could make the case that the East was the best because they had the best team in Chicago, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise. Overall as a conference, the West had more talent and more top teams than the East did in that decade.

    You could also argue that the East was better in the 80s, which I wouldn't dispute. But the problem there is that the Bulls could never get out of the East in the 80s, so that's kind of a moot point. It wasn't until Pippen hit his prime and the Pistons and Celtics lost power that the Bulls made the Finals in the 90s.

    LeBron spent the majority of his career in the weaker conference.
    Yeah, that's fair. I don't think anyone would argue that.

    Regarding the players on his team? I mean look - nobody, and I mean nobody, thought Scottie was the second best player on the court in any of those eastern conference battles at the time. As years have gone by Scottie's standing has been elevated. But show me someone who, at the time, would have traded Ewing, Reggie, Isiah, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Clyde Drexler, or Charles Barkley straight up for Scottie Pippen and I'll show you a liar.
    I was a child in the 90s, so I can't speak to this. But if we have historical context to look back on, I think you could make the case that Pippen was more valuable than a number of those guys. I'd rather have peak Pippen over peak Reggie, Payton, Kemp, Drexler, Isiah, etc.

    Also... outside of Wade/Bosh? lol he won two of his rings and had 4 of his finals appearances with Wade/Bosh. How can you just say "oh, besides them"?

    His Lakers bubble title had AD.

    I'll give you Cleveland coming back from 3-1. But he did have Kyrie and Kevin Love on that team - two all NBA players. They were hardly chumps.
    No disagreement here. Lebron needed help to win, just like Jordan did and pretty much every superstar in the history of the league. If you took every finals since the 60s and looked at the title teams, there are probably just a handful that didn't have at least two elite, Hall-of-Fame caliber guys on the roster in their primes.


  14. #29
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    I mean, Dallas is the only real blemish for LeBron. And saying LeBron had to bail on the Cavs is such lazy analysis. Those cavs teams were behind awful when you compare them to championship caliber teams.

    And discrediting LeBron for his finals losses by saying he played in the weaker conference but not acknowledging the west wasn't all that great when Jordan was around is dumb.

    I also think the era thing is such a weird arguement too. I think comparing eras is hard anyways. And sure, Jordan's era was more physical and allowed hand checking. But let's not forget that was probably one of the weaker eras for wing players. Most of the top guys from his time were PG/PF/C. Outside of Jordan and Pippen, who were the best true wing guys? Unless I'm forgetting someone, it's guys like Dumars, Drexler and those types. Those are really good players, but it's not Kobe and Durant that have overlapped with LeBron. And on top of that, the caliber of wing defender has exploded since Jordan's day. And credit Jordan for really kicking the wing Era of the league off, but the caliber defender he faced was nothing like what exists today, especially on the perimeter. Seems every team now has at least one hyper athektic 6'7" plus guy with long arms who's one job is to harass guys on the wing.

    To me, they are the top two guys. I'm not going to get worked up about someone saying one or the other. But anyone who doesn't think the margin is razor thin is just wrong in my opinion.

  15. #30
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    Making the finals mean exactly nothing if you lose.
    Leracist could only win with a super team
    MJ went 3-0 while his starting team mates were Pippen,Armstrong,Grant and Cartwright
    If Leracist were on that team they'd be in the lottery

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