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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    I think he earned the players trust over and over again throughout the season. He always had their back. Early in the year I actually wondered how he would be energy wise. He eased himself back IMO, but in the 2nd half, he was fiery.

    As for shifting and analytics, he was one of the 1st managers to win a World Series while utilizing the Bullpen heavily. When it comes to shifting and all that, it doesn't fall solely on the manager. You need to surround him with the right assistants who can help with analytics.

    I thought he did a good job with the Bullpen too. Most of the season he was making the pitching changes I liked. Our Bullpen just didn't perform to their abilities. A lot of people will complain that he waited too long to pull Rodon the other day. But if he pulls him early, and Kopech does what he did, then those same people would have said that he pulled him too soon. The people that write about those decisions use their 20/20 hindsight, and are mostly full of **** and reactionary.

    Everyone also talk about us underachieving? We lost 3 regulars for more then 2/3rd's of the season (Robert, Eloy, Madrigal). 2 of our 5 starters (Lynn and Rodon) fell apart, and they weren't overused in the slightest. Eaton and Engel were our RF platoon to start the season. Eaton didn't make it to the midway point, and Engel was injured most of the year. Grandal missed significant time. Anderson missed 39 games. Robert missed 94 games. Grandal missed 69 games. 107 games. Madrigal would have missed 108 games. That's 4 of your core players missing huge chunks of the season. Yet we found a way to maneuver players through our system and some veteran journeyman, and we still played good baseball for the majority of the season.
    The players need to be held accountable. Yes there were injuries, more so in the 1st half when our starters were dominating. Outside of Robert, and the statistical anomaly that was Grandalís walk percentage, none of the other position players really had a great year. Not one all star position player. Most regulars didnít even crack .800 ops. Bullpen definitely underperformed. And then the rotation started to break down. Compare that to the lineups of the teams still playing.

    But worse than the overall numbers, was the inconsistencies. We pile on a team for 15 runs and win by 12 runs, then the next day lose 2-1. And that happened more than once.
    Last edited by Sockeye; 10-15-2021 at 12:06 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    The players need to be held accountable. Yes there were injuries, more so in the 1st half when our starters were dominating. Outside of Robert, and the statistical anomaly that was Grandalís walk percentage, none of the other position players really had a great year. Not one all star position player. Most regulars didnít even crack .800 ops. Bullpen definitely underperformed. And then the rotation started to break down. Compare that to the lineups of the teams still playing.

    But worse than the overall numbers, was the inconsistencies. We pile on a team for 15 runs and win by 12 runs, then the next day lose 2-1. And that happened more than once.
    I agree, the players need to be held accountable. I think thatís why you see them openly supporting Tony returning. They know that they didnít do their job. At the end of the day, thatís what makes a great team great. A great manager can put you in all the right positions, but if you donít execute, whoís to blame? Tony pushed the right buttons all year, and honestly probably had more success doing it with our lesser players. Our core didnít perform, LouBob the big exception. Eloy underachieved, somewhat understandably cuz of missed time, but LouBob did let that hold him back. YoYo didnít do his part consistently at the plate. Anderson did his part for the most part hitting, but his nonchalant throws cost us numerous times, once in game 5, and very nearly twice. Abreu was great in the field. He saved more outs at 1st then Iíve ever seen. I know thatís not a true statement but it really felt like it. He was a wall. Grandal hitting wise struggled out of the gates, but got hit b4 going down with an injury. He said he found an issue in his approach, and I buy it cuz he came back and was a top notch hitter to close out the season. I see him having some late career DH success similar to Victor Martinez did for years with Detroit. Defensively all our catchers left so much to be desired. Thatís why I think, and thought catcher was a need most of the year. I want Grandal as a part time catcher, and DH the rest of the time. Which makes Sheets or Vaughn expendable via trade, if it lands us an elite OFíer.

  3. #48
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    Remember when we were told La Russa is so good managing that he's playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. Haha!

    La Russa got out managed so many freaking times this year it was unbelievable, especially in the ALDS. Dusty kicked his butt in all decisions.

    The Sox won 93 games because they are damn good and talented not because of Tony. My fear is that Jerry is going to F up this core by continuing to employee TLR. Of course the players are going to say they like TLR and support him. Do you think they are going to throw him under the bus like he did to some of his players!?!?! Nope!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSox_05 View Post
    Remember when we were told La Russa is so good managing that he's playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. Haha!

    La Russa got out managed so many freaking times this year it was unbelievable, especially in the ALDS. Dusty kicked his butt in all decisions.

    The Sox won 93 games because they are damn good and talented not because of Tony. My fear is that Jerry is going to F up this core by continuing to employee TLR. Of course the players are going to say they like TLR and support him. Do you think they are going to throw him under the bus like he did to some of his players!?!?! Nope!
    Damn good and Talented? That was the narrative before the season started.

    Grandal was good for 2.5 months this season. He also missed 1/3 of the season.

    Abreu was only great in terms of hitting for 2 months.

    Moncada was an average at best hitter for all but 1 month.

    Eloy played 2.5 months this year. He was solid in 31 Wins and pretty much useless in 24 Losses.

    The only 2 players that were consistent this season were LouBob, who missed more then half the season, and Anderson. We had 2 guys out of 9 core players live up to their potential offensively. 2 in Abreu and Grandal that salvaged their rough seasons with hug months at the end.

    Tell me where the rest of the talent on this roster was in the field? Leury is a utility that 90% of the people in here hated until a month ago. Collins Sucks. Vaughn played out of position, is inexperienced, and only had 1 truly hot stretch the whole year. Madrigal was great, but he missed pretty much the whole season, and he's not here anymore. Cesar didn't do his part when he came over. Mercedes was fun for a month and then was unrosterable. Engel couldn't stay healthy and wasn't anything to write about when he was. Eaton was good for a few weeks and then so bad we cut him. Sheets in limited action did some good things but was far from consistent. Also a rookie. Goodwin, Bham and Lamb were vets we pulled off the streets to help fill gaps. Nothing great about them.

    We keep talking about all this talent, but they were either hurt, or didn't perform close to what is expected of them.

    As for our pitching. Giolito was good, but not his best. He didn't show up in the playoffs. Lynn was great up until his leg injuries started. He wasn't good for the last month and a half of the season and also was terrible in the playoffs. Rodon was great until his arm fell off a month and a half ago. Also didn't do his part in the playoffs. Keuchel was pathetic 90% of the season. Cease was great vs. average to below average teams in low leverage games, and pretty bad in games vs. good teams.

    Our Bullpen underperformed across the board. Kopech was good in the up until the end of the July. After he imploded vs. the Indians, he sucked most of the rest of the season. Bummer was inconsistent. He'd have a great run where you'd say, "That's the Bummer we hyped up", and then he'd implode. Happened pretty much all year with him. Crochet was good, but he wasn't the dominant guy we saw for a short period last season. Hendriks was good, but he gave up a lot of big HR's pretty much all year. Kimbrel was awful for us more often then not. Marshall was supposed to be a key BP arm and his arm fell off. Foster was supposed to be decent and he was terrible. Heuer was pretty bad for us as well before the trade.

    If you wanna blame Tony for our team that's fine. That's the easy way out. But the guys that went out there didn't hold up their end of the bargain nearly enough. He put them in position to win, with a **** deck of cards with all the injuries, and we won 90+ games. But We easily could have been a 100+ win team if we were healthy, and if our guys played up to their potential. The manager can only do so much. You obviously don't like him. But this seasons struggles are on the players. Not him.

  5. #50
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    Our pitchers gave up at least 6 runs, in every playoff game.
    Our lineup was only able to generate 1 run in each of 2 games.
    That is why we lost. You canít manage around that.
    Itís easy to pick apart every decision in hindsight throughout the course of a season. You can do that with every manager. I can guarantee you that for every person who complained that Kopech was brought in on 2 days rest for game 4, there would have been just as many complaining that he wasnít used in an elimination game, if he was not used.

  6. #51
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    He got us 93 wins, with no all star position players.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye View Post
    Our pitchers gave up at least 6 runs, in every playoff game.
    Our lineup was only able to generate 1 run in each of 2 games.
    That is why we lost. You canít manage around that.
    Itís easy to pick apart every decision in hindsight throughout the course of a season. You can do that with every manager. I can guarantee you that for every person who complained that Kopech was brought in on 2 days rest for game 4, there would have been just as many complaining that he wasnít used in an elimination game, if he was not used.
    PREACH!

    If you can't pitch on 2 days rest in the playoffs, at his age, maybe you aren't it!!!

    People were mad that we didn't use Kopech in Game 1 or 2 as well. I wonder if they blamed him not pitching in those games for his ****** game in game 3?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    Damn good and Talented? That was the narrative before the season started.

    Grandal was good for 2.5 months this season. He also missed 1/3 of the season.

    Abreu was only great in terms of hitting for 2 months.

    Moncada was an average at best hitter for all but 1 month.

    Eloy played 2.5 months this year. He was solid in 31 Wins and pretty much useless in 24 Losses.

    The only 2 players that were consistent this season were LouBob, who missed more then half the season, and Anderson. We had 2 guys out of 9 core players live up to their potential offensively. 2 in Abreu and Grandal that salvaged their rough seasons with hug months at the end.

    Tell me where the rest of the talent on this roster was in the field? Leury is a utility that 90% of the people in here hated until a month ago. Collins Sucks. Vaughn played out of position, is inexperienced, and only had 1 truly hot stretch the whole year. Madrigal was great, but he missed pretty much the whole season, and he's not here anymore. Cesar didn't do his part when he came over. Mercedes was fun for a month and then was unrosterable. Engel couldn't stay healthy and wasn't anything to write about when he was. Eaton was good for a few weeks and then so bad we cut him. Sheets in limited action did some good things but was far from consistent. Also a rookie. Goodwin, Bham and Lamb were vets we pulled off the streets to help fill gaps. Nothing great about them.

    We keep talking about all this talent, but they were either hurt, or didn't perform close to what is expected of them.

    As for our pitching. Giolito was good, but not his best. He didn't show up in the playoffs. Lynn was great up until his leg injuries started. He wasn't good for the last month and a half of the season and also was terrible in the playoffs. Rodon was great until his arm fell off a month and a half ago. Also didn't do his part in the playoffs. Keuchel was pathetic 90% of the season. Cease was great vs. average to below average teams in low leverage games, and pretty bad in games vs. good teams.

    Our Bullpen underperformed across the board. Kopech was good in the up until the end of the July. After he imploded vs. the Indians, he sucked most of the rest of the season. Bummer was inconsistent. He'd have a great run where you'd say, "That's the Bummer we hyped up", and then he'd implode. Happened pretty much all year with him. Crochet was good, but he wasn't the dominant guy we saw for a short period last season. Hendriks was good, but he gave up a lot of big HR's pretty much all year. Kimbrel was awful for us more often then not. Marshall was supposed to be a key BP arm and his arm fell off. Foster was supposed to be decent and he was terrible. Heuer was pretty bad for us as well before the trade.

    If you wanna blame Tony for our team that's fine. That's the easy way out. But the guys that went out there didn't hold up their end of the bargain nearly enough. He put them in position to win, with a **** deck of cards with all the injuries, and we won 90+ games. But We easily could have been a 100+ win team if we were healthy, and if our guys played up to their potential. The manager can only do so much. You obviously don't like him. But this seasons struggles are on the players. Not him.
    Yes this team was damn good and talented, if you didn't see that I can't help you. Example players fWar and the best offensive stat wRC+.

    Yoan Moncada 4.5 fWar 122 wRC+
    Tim Anderson 4.3 fWar 120 wRC+
    Jose Abreu 2.9 fWar 126 wRC+
    Luis Robert 3.2 fWar 157 wRC+
    Yasmani Grandal 3.7 fWar 159 wRC+

    These five batters and the Sox excellent starting pitching with a great closer is why they overcame an average bullpen, terrible second basemen, bad RF'er and inconsistent play from LF. Funny I say average bullpen but it was actually pretty good, they had the second highest fWar (7.8) to the Rays who had a 7.9 fWar.

    What this team lacked was fundamentals, not shifting properly, catching the ball, hitting cut off men and doing the extra things like steals when necessary taking the extra base. That's ALL on coaching! The teams talent got them to 93 wins. Hell they could've had over 100 wins if they had a 100% healthy team all season.

    They were exposed in the playoffs in what they don't do well which I mentioned above. Also lost this series on HORRIBLE bullpen management by TLR. As well as Frank Menechino the hitting coach, he should be fired. This team hits WAY too many ground balls, they were 3rd in the league in GB%. Ball go far team go far and the Sox showed that in the regular season, when they hit a HR or multiple HR's in a game their record was phenomenal.

    So when you have all this talent and you can't beat the Astros in 5 games when they had every opportunity to do so that's when you blame coaching. TLR made some real bad bullpen decisions and shifting decisions. Their hitting coach should be fired for his stupid "who cares about HR mentality".

    Side Note: I just find it comical that everyone wants to trade Yoan but he's been the teams best player since he got here. He had one bad season in 2020 because of Covid.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabears34ft View Post
    PREACH!

    If you can't pitch on 2 days rest in the playoffs, at his age, maybe you aren't it!!!

    People were mad that we didn't use Kopech in Game 1 or 2 as well. I wonder if they blamed him not pitching in those games for his ****** game in game 3?
    Game 2 the Sox were winning 4-2 in the 5th inning. Giolito was gased and didn't have it anymore going into the bottom of the 5th inning. He should've brought Kopech in but he didn't. He let Giolito start the inning then he walked Altuve to leadoff got Brantley out then walked Bregman. Then he brought in Crochet who pitched the day before and threw 26 pitches!!! Then he gave up the lead, that's where the game was lost.

    If he brings Kopech in and Kopech blows that's not on TLR it's on Kopech. Then I wouldn't be upset, TLR was saving Kopech to piggy back Rodon which he should not had done. You win the game in front of you which was a very winnable game in game 2.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSox_05 View Post

    Side Note: I just find it comical that everyone wants to trade Yoan but he's been the teams best player since he got here. He had one bad season in 2020 because of Covid.
    Just to pick on this one point though it could be others too. No one has said trade Yoan, have they in this thread?
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
    Just to pick on this one point though it could be others too. No one has said trade Yoan, have they in this thread?
    Right I def never said trade Yoan. If Iím trading anyone itís Eloy or one of our young DH/1B

  12. #57
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    - LaRussa retires or gets promoted to the FO.
    - Hahn gets another chance at filling holes at 2B, RF and back-up catcher. Good luck with that.
    - Eloy stays in LF. Sorry Charlie, that has already been litigated.
    - Keuchel gets traded.
    - Kimbrel goes one way or another.
    - Romy Gonzalez will get a good look in Spring Training. He could replace Leury.
    - Sox need to add an Ace starter but they won't.
    - I would not rely on Kopech or Rodon for anything.
    - Sox miss the play-offs next season, primarily because of a sub-standard rotation and the emergence of other teams in the Division.
    - Houston returns to the ALCS in 2022.
    - Like Tepera said, Astros might still be cheating.
    Last edited by garypeters; 10-15-2021 at 10:46 PM.

  13. #58
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    Chicago White Sox Offseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by garypeters View Post
    - LaRussa retires or gets promoted to the FO.
    - Hahn gets another chance at filling holes at 2B, RF and back-up catcher. Good luck with that.
    - Eloy stays in LF. Sorry Charlie, that has already been litigated.
    - Keuchel gets traded.
    - Kimbrel goes one way or another.
    - Romy Gonzalez will get a good look in Spring Training. He could replace Leury.
    - Sox need to add an Ace starter but they won't.
    - I would not rely on Kopech or Rodon for anything.
    - Sox miss the play-offs next season, primarily because of a sub-standard rotation and the emergence of other teams in the Division.
    - Houston returns to the ALCS in 2022.
    - Like Tepera said, Astros might still be cheating.
    My opinion, but we could do absolutely nothing in FA this off-season and will still the division next year.


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    Last edited by Pierzynski4Prez; 10-16-2021 at 01:21 AM.

  14. #59
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    Romy will definitely get a shot to fill Leuryís spot, but still wouldnít be surprised if they brought Leury back. Iím almost certain Yolbert Sanchez will get a crack in spring training as well. He was a big international signing, heís an elite defensive spec, and he hit at every level, best of all at the highest he played in AA. I think heís the reason they move Madrigal. He is gonna be 25, looks ready, brings a potentially equal to better glove, and slightly more pop than Nicky 2 Strikes. Not the elite contact Guy Madrigal is, but no one really is. And heís well above average in the contact department. We are actually deep in the middle in our system. RF and C is the area we need to improve. Throw Collins and Sheets out in trade offers to try to sure up catcher. Pay a RF (Marte, Castellanos, Bryant), work with what we have at 2B, and move Grandal to part time Catcher, closer to full time DH. Go big for an Ace.

  15. #60
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    If you allow for a bit of recency bias, the Sox were middle of the pack in the division since the all-star break. And that was with getting most of our injured players back. Next year will definitely present its challenges to win the division.

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