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  1. #3076
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    Here's a question, do people consider framing, to be defense? After thinking about it, I don't. It's more of a specialty and add on for a catcher. I consider blocking balls, throwing out runners and being a very consistent receiver to be the defensive aspect. I know that anals say differently but here's another question. If you had a choice between a catcher who had a plus arm and pop time, plus blocking and receiving and plus framing or a catcher who had plus plus, arm and pop, plus plus blocking and receiving and a negative framing ability, who would you choose?


    I would choose the second guy all day, every day. I would also consider him the better defender.
    I actually think if framing is irrelevant, we will likely see catchers get better defensively because they won't be worried about that.
    Your choice would be even better if they make the bases larger to avoid injuries. That extra 4" would be the difference income safe and out calls and might lead to a higher valuing of speed in the game. So, naturally, the better arm becomes even more important for a catcher.

  2. #3077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    Here's a question, do people consider framing, to be defense? After thinking about it, I don't. It's more of a specialty and add on for a catcher. I consider blocking balls, throwing out runners and being a very consistent receiver to be the defensive aspect. I know that anals say differently but here's another question. If you had a choice between a catcher who had a plus arm and pop time, plus blocking and receiving and plus framing or a catcher who had plus plus, arm and pop, plus plus blocking and receiving and a negative framing ability, who would you choose?
    I would choose the second guy all day, every day. I would also consider him the better defender.
    I actually think if framing is irrelevant, we will likely see catchers get better defensively because they won't be worried about that.
    IMO, i take the 2nd guy all day everyday. While stealing a strike here and there is all well and good, but recieving, blocking and throwing are the elements i want in a catcher. If your pitchers are confident that they can throw pretty much anything to their catcher, they'll throw more hit and miss type pitches. If the pitcher isn't worried about the base runner stealing on them, they can focus more on making their pitches.

    How much better would Chapman have been last yr if he didn't have to worry about bouncing one or have to worry about a base runner turning a walk into a triple. IMO, especially with the quality of stuff our staff has, u need a catcher that can keep everything in front of him and have the pop time and arm to make up for a pitcher with a weak move to first or slower delivery

  3. #3078
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    IMO, i take the 2nd guy all day everyday. While stealing a strike here and there is all well and good, but recieving, blocking and throwing are the elements i want in a catcher. If your pitchers are confident that they can throw pretty much anything to their catcher, they'll throw more hit and miss type pitches. If the pitcher isn't worried about the base runner stealing on them, they can focus more on making their pitches.

    How much better would Chapman have been last yr if he didn't have to worry about bouncing one or have to worry about a base runner turning a walk into a triple. IMO, especially with the quality of stuff our staff has, u need a catcher that can keep everything in front of him and have the pop time and arm to make up for a pitcher with a weak move to first or slower delivery
    100%. I’m far more impressed by a catcher that stops runners than one that steals maybe 2 extra strikes a game.

  4. #3079
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    .....

    And Gary Sanchez is still the top Yankee catcher….

    Merry Xmas and bah humbug!
    Last edited by drt1010; 12-25-2021 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Sorry Nicky we aren't going down that road here. save it for the politics forum.
    My favorite Top 10 Rolling Stones songs
    1. Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo ( Heartbreaker)
    2. Gimme Shelter
    3. Miss You
    4. Angie
    5. Sympathy for the Devil
    6. Anybody seen my Baby
    7. Paint it Black
    8. Rock and a Hard Place
    9. (I can’t get no) Satisfaction
    10. Undercover of the Night


  5. #3080
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    .....

    And Gary Sanchez is still the top Yankee catcher….

    Merry Xmas and bah humbug!
    Oh, I know…I was just being funny….90% of the things are just jokes anyway…


    Merry Xmas Dr.
    My favorite Top 10 Rolling Stones songs
    1. Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo ( Heartbreaker)
    2. Gimme Shelter
    3. Miss You
    4. Angie
    5. Sympathy for the Devil
    6. Anybody seen my Baby
    7. Paint it Black
    8. Rock and a Hard Place
    9. (I can’t get no) Satisfaction
    10. Undercover of the Night


  6. #3081
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJYANKS12 View Post
    100%. I’m far more impressed by a catcher that stops runners than one that steals maybe 2 extra strikes a game.
    I think that the extra strikes are more valuable. I'm not sure what the statistics say about how many strikes per game certain catchers add, but a added strike on a 2 strike count could be massive and has the opportunity to occur much more often. With people rarely running, a lot of games a catcher doesn't even need to throw the ball. Plus, in the hypothetical, the pitch framer still has a good arm and pop times so it isn't like he is a bum at that part too.

  7. #3082
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    Oh, I know…I was just being funny….90% of the things are just jokes anyway…


    Merry Xmas Dr.
    No problem Nicky, Happy Holidays. Happy New Year.

    Keep it in the short grass.

  8. #3083
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    I think that the extra strikes are more valuable. I'm not sure what the statistics say about how many strikes per game certain catchers add, but a added strike on a 2 strike count could be massive and has the opportunity to occur much more often. With people rarely running, a lot of games a catcher doesn't even need to throw the ball. Plus, in the hypothetical, the pitch framer still has a good arm and pop times so it isn't like he is a bum at that part too.
    I tend to agree. Stealing strikes may be more valuable depending on situation and circumstance. It changes the count, the batters perspective and how aggressive he is or not, as well as the pitchers mindset. If he's ahead in the count he pitches more aggressively, if behind more carefully and may groove one out of caution. A called strike three could be a difference maker in the outcome. Robo umps have rendered this all meaningless.

    Strong arm and pop time have value and with the robo ump may have increased import.

  9. #3084
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    I think that the extra strikes are more valuable. I'm not sure what the statistics say about how many strikes per game certain catchers add, but a added strike on a 2 strike count could be massive and has the opportunity to occur much more often. With people rarely running, a lot of games a catcher doesn't even need to throw the ball. Plus, in the hypothetical, the pitch framer still has a good arm and pop times so it isn't like he is a bum at that part too.
    Last year the Astros and Yankees brought stealing back.

  10. #3085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoba Rama View Post
    Last year the Astros and Yankees brought stealing back.
    Astros were great at stealing in 2017



    Ignorance is bliss

  11. #3086
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    Quote Originally Posted by EAGLES3658 View Post
    I think that the extra strikes are more valuable. I'm not sure what the statistics say about how many strikes per game certain catchers add, but a added strike on a 2 strike count could be massive and has the opportunity to occur much more often. With people rarely running, a lot of games a catcher doesn't even need to throw the ball. Plus, in the hypothetical, the pitch framer still has a good arm and pop times so it isn't like he is a bum at that part too.
    From what i can tell, a great framer can steal 4-5 strikes per game. If you could count on them all being two strike counts or late in games when it really matters, i would place more value on that.

    While i agree the plus, plus arm isn't nearly as important as other aspects of a catchers make up because teams rarely run anymore. What i find the most valuable skills in a C are receiving and blocking. If a pitcher knows that pretty much whatever he throws the catcher will keep it in front of him and especially if the pitcher is very comfortable throwing to their C, they'll throw more strikes than the 4-5 a catcher might steal by framing.

    If Cole or Chapman or any of our pitchers with great breaking balls, or sinkers. were worried, especially late in games, that if they throw one in the dirt or it gets away from them a bit it will likely end up at the backstop, they won't be able to throw there best pitches, especially with runners on base. IMO, as a former pitcher and my step bro making it to the MLB as a pitcher I know how big a deal it is to have a catcher that receives the ball well, keeps the ball in front of him and makes pitchers comfortable throwing to them, how big an advantage that can be. A great defensive C not only can make a lot of pitchers better but make up from some of their mistakes. If a C has the arm and pop times that keep runners in check, pitchers that are slower to the plate will have less to worry about. I want our pitchers to have enough confidence in their catchers to be able to throw their best stuff in any count with runners on base. It hasn't been that way since Sanchez has been our primary receiver and while Higgy is a bit better its not enough.
    Romine didn't hit well but he was a hell of alot better defender than anything we have now. Thats one reason i didn't understand why they got rid of Sands. We all want our pitchers to be better and some complain that Cole hasn't been worth the money, he also hasn't hasn't had nearly as good of defensive C''s since he's been here. I'm far more guilty than most of defending Sanchez in the past because of his offensive potential that he hasn't lived up to. I think our front office is more scared that he'll go somewhere else and be the guy he was when he first came up than what he's actually doing on the field. We have some incredible arms with really good stuff but we always complain how they don't live up to expectations. They need to forget about trying to get an elite offensive C and get one that makes the pitchers better. Part of pitching is being able to throw one out of the zone or even in the dirt, if your C can't catch anything that doesn't hit them in the glove, it takes a lot of pitchers weapons away from them

    My overall point is the Gary/ Higgy situation is a much bigger problem than most fans, me until this last yr included. We have pitchers with incredible stuff and we have to get much better behind the plate if we really want to win. Cashman and co have put way to much importance on getting big offensive production at that position and we HAVE to get away from that. IMO, if we want to our pitchers to be better we need catchers that help them not hurt them.

    We can argue whatever tools we want in a future catcher, but the simple fact of the matter is if we really expect to win, what we have behind the plate now needs to change. We have Cole, Kluber and Monty that by the end of the season didn't want to throw to Sanchez anymore and their only other option was Higgy and that wasn't much better of a choice.

    This is a little off topic but i think were going to see the Yanks start placing far more importance on getting speed and athleticism. Look at the players they are developing, Volpe and Peraza both stole 30 plus bases last yr, Cabrera set a personnel record with 22. Wells runs well for a bigger guy as does Garcia and Pereira. If Dom every figures out how to run the bases he has similar speed to Volpe. When we played our best baseball last yr we had players running and taking the extra bases far more often. I think they more athletic , speed players that we can get in the lineup to surround our sluggers like Judge and Stanton the better we're going to be. The philosophy of hitting more HRs to win games hasn't gotten us far enough in a long time. We need to develop and bring in those kind of players IMO
    Last edited by dayners81; 12-27-2021 at 02:16 AM.

  12. #3087
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    From what i can tell, a great framer can steal 4-5 strikes per game. If you could count on them all being two strike counts or late in games when it really matters, i would place more value on that.

    While i agree the plus, plus arm isn't nearly as important as other aspects of a catchers make up because teams rarely run anymore. What i find the most valuable skills in a C are receiving and blocking. If a pitcher knows that pretty much whatever he throws the catcher will keep it in front of him and especially if the pitcher is very comfortable throwing to their C, they'll throw more strikes than the 4-5 a catcher might steal by framing.

    If Cole or Chapman or any of our pitchers with great breaking balls, or sinkers. were worried, especially late in games, that if they throw one in the dirt or it gets away from them a bit it will likely end up at the backstop, they won't be able to throw there best pitches, especially with runners on base. IMO, as a former pitcher and my step bro making it to the MLB as a pitcher I know how big a deal it is to have a catcher that receives the ball well, keeps the ball in front of him and makes pitchers comfortable throwing to them, how big an advantage that can be. A great defensive C not only can make a lot of pitchers better but make up from some of their mistakes. If a C has the arm and pop times that keep runners in check, pitchers that are slower to the plate will have less to worry about. I want our pitchers to have enough confidence in their catchers to be able to throw their best stuff in any count with runners on base. It hasn't been that way since Sanchez has been our primary receiver and while Higgy is a bit better its not enough.
    Romine didn't hit well but he was a hell of alot better defender than anything we have now. Thats one reason i didn't understand why they got rid of Sands. We all want our pitchers to be better and some complain that Cole hasn't been worth the money, he also hasn't hasn't had nearly as good of defensive C''s since he's been here. I'm far more guilty than most of defending Sanchez in the past because of his offensive potential that he hasn't lived up to. I think our front office is more scared that he'll go somewhere else and be the guy he was when he first came up than what he's actually doing on the field. We have some incredible arms with really good stuff but we always complain how they don't live up to expectations. They need to forget about trying to get an elite offensive C and get one that makes the pitchers better. Part of pitching is being able to throw one out of the zone or even in the dirt, if your C can't catch anything that doesn't hit them in the glove, it takes a lot of pitchers weapons away from them

    My overall point is the Gary/ Higgy situation is a much bigger problem than most fans, me until this last yr included. We have pitchers with incredible stuff and we have to get much better behind the plate if we really want to win. Cashman and co have put way to much importance on getting big offensive production at that position and we HAVE to get away from that. IMO, if we want to our pitchers to be better we need catchers that help them not hurt them.

    We can argue whatever tools we want in a future catcher, but the simple fact of the matter is if we really expect to win, what we have behind the plate now needs to change. We have Cole, Kluber and Monty that by the end of the season didn't want to throw to Sanchez anymore and their only other option was Higgy and that wasn't much better of a choice.

    This is a little off topic but i think were going to see the Yanks start placing far more importance on getting speed and athleticism. Look at the players they are developing, Volpe and Peraza both stole 30 plus bases last yr, Cabrera set a personnel record with 22. Wells runs well for a bigger guy as does Garcia and Pereira. If Dom every figures out how to run the bases he has similar speed to Volpe. When we played our best baseball last yr we had players running and taking the extra bases far more often. I think they more athletic , speed players that we can get in the lineup to surround our sluggers like Judge and Stanton the better we're going to be. The philosophy of hitting more HRs to win games hasn't gotten us far enough in a long time. We need to develop and bring in those kind of players IMO
    Amen.



    Ignorance is bliss

  13. #3088
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    Simmons doesn't get much love from Yankee fans , but worth noting:

    Simmons has 178 defensive runs saved since 2013.

    No other shortstop has more than 69 DRS in that time.

    No other player (any position) has more than 136 DRS in that time.

  14. #3089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkotheclown View Post
    Amen.
    Just to play devils advocate, does speed really equate to W's? Or are other factors more important? For instance power and pitching?

    Using Statcast's Sprint Speed metric, we graded every team from fastest to slowest based on its projected full-strength starting lineup for the 2020 season. Before we get to the results, here's what you need to know.

    First, there are two key benchmarks to remember for Sprint Speed:
    • MLB average = 27 feet per second
    • Elite speed = 30+ feet per second

    Now, the scoring system:

    Each player gets a + or - for how far above/below average his Sprint Speed is. Below the fastest teams 2021 respective records and finish position.

    1) Blue Jays -- Speed score: +19.6 91-71 4th in AL East

    2) Padres -- Speed score: +19.3 61- 101 last in NL Central

    3) Phillies -- Speed score: +18.5 82-80 2nd NL East

    4) Cubs -- Speed score: +15.2 71-91 4th NL Central

    5) Braves -- Speed score: +14.1 88-73 1st NL East

    6) Dodgers -- Speed score: +14 106-56 2nd NL East

    7) Nationals -- Speed score: +13.8 65-07 Last NL East

    8) Cardinals -- Speed score: +13.1 90-72 2nd NL Central

    9) Rays -- Speed score: +9.9 100-62 1st AL East

    10) Indians -- Speed score: +9.8 80-82 2nd AL Central

    What exactly has all that speed amounted to? Save for the Rays not much imo. LA had a good season but came up short. Worth noting the WS champion Braves also were #3 in total team Hr's and #4 in SLG%. Also note worthy, the first place finishers, in the ultra competitive, AL East the Tampa Bay Rays, were 1st in total HR's with 262. Speed without power doesn't get you to the finish line.

    https://www.mlb.com/news/fastest-mlb-teams-2020
    Last edited by drt1010; 12-28-2021 at 05:11 PM.

  15. #3090
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    Quote Originally Posted by drt1010 View Post
    Just to play devils advocate, does speed really equate to W's? Or are other factors more important? For instance power and pitching?

    Using Statcast's Sprint Speed metric, we graded every team from fastest to slowest based on its projected full-strength starting lineup for the 2020 season. Before we get to the results, here's what you need to know.

    First, there are two key benchmarks to remember for Sprint Speed:
    • MLB average = 27 feet per second
    • Elite speed = 30+ feet per second

    Now, the scoring system:

    Each player gets a + or - for how far above/below average his Sprint Speed is. Below the fastest teams 2021 respective records and finish position.

    1) Blue Jays -- Speed score: +19.6 91-71 4th in AL East

    2) Padres -- Speed score: +19.3 61- 101 last in NL Central

    3) Phillies -- Speed score: +18.5 82-80 2nd NL East

    4) Cubs -- Speed score: +15.2 71-91 4th NL Central

    5) Braves -- Speed score: +14.1 88-73 1st NL East

    6) Dodgers -- Speed score: +14 106-56 2nd NL East

    7) Nationals -- Speed score: +13.8 65-07 Last NL East

    8) Cardinals -- Speed score: +13.1 90-72 2nd NL Central

    9) Rays -- Speed score: +9.9 100-62 1st AL East

    10) Indians -- Speed score: +9.8 80-82 2nd AL Central

    What exactly has all that speed amounted to? Save for the Rays not much imo. LA had a good season but came up short. Worth noting the WS champion Braves also were #3 in total team Hr's and #4 in SLG%. Also note worthy, the first place finishers, in the ultra competitive, AL East the Tampa Bay Rays, were 1st in total HR's with 262. Speed without power doesn't get you to the finish line.

    https://www.mlb.com/news/fastest-mlb-teams-2020
    Speed only won't win games but speed can get you runs, get you an infield hit, short double, steal a base to get into scoring position, pressure a pitcher and run down balls.
    None of that matter if you can't get on base, hit the ball to drive in a run or catch and throw.
    I think a blend is good but I will alway go for the more athletic, faster , defensive player over straight up, plodding power hitter. Unless of course I have 6 contact, speedsters in the lineup and need some power bats.

    And of course if you can't pitch, you're screwed.



    Ignorance is bliss

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