Off Season Thread aka The Party is over

[RJYANKS12]

Still say we shoulda signed Seager…

That being said, Story and Correa do nothing for me. I don’t think either move the needle enough to commit that kind of money. However, I do think Freeman moves the needle.

When it comes to specs, I’m in the camp that wants to trade them for stars (80% of the time). I would’ve traded anyone outside of Dom for Lindor last year. Probably would’ve been a bad trade. This year I’d trade anyone not named Dom or Volpe for a top 3 player at a position of need.

[dayners81]

But that's still an issue at the major league level rather than screwing up what made them "successful" through the minors. Judge has definitely regressed when it comes to his bb%, although he has improved at making more contact outside the zone, and he appears to have better pitch recognition and striking out less. I actually prefer this version of judge, although i honestly miss the guy who hit 52 home runs. I think Gary is the only one who might not have gotten the right coaching, but honestly, when a player goes as bad like he has, asking a hitting coach to save him is an impossible task.

That was exactly the point, they didn't keep focusing on the things that made them successful early in their careers. It was a failure at the MLB level to keep helping those kids develop. They hit rough spots and instead of trying to put them back on the path that they were successful on, they started asking them to make big changes.

They put Torres at a position for the better part of 2 seasons he wasn't suited for. You could see pretty early on that he wasn't a full time SS but even with all the struggles they kept running him out there to his detriment. He wasn't comfortable there at all and it effected his offense tremendously.. thats poor input from the anals and bad coaching

Andujar had injury issues but they kept running him out at different positions instead of having him focus on one. They should have stuck him in the OF and given him more of a chance to see how that worked out. There is no reason a guy with his athleticism and arm couldn't handle LF. Ryan Braun was actually worse defensively at 3rd but ended up a passable OFer

Gary was a bigger debacle than Joba. He was extremely successful at the plate and passable defensively with Pena. Then they ask him to change his defensive style 3 times in 4yrs. I don't care how naturally gifted of a C a player is, if you ask them to change everything they are doing every yr its going to cause struggles. He started to get it, wait its time to change again. If a player is focusing 80% of their time on 1 side of the ball, they are going to struggle on the other side. Both he and Torres are examples of that.

Judges issues were more injury related than performance based but he was the one guy that wasn't asked to make huge changes or play another position. Judge was actually the lowest ranked spec when he was coming up, i think the highest i saw him ranked was in the mid 70's. From my recollection he was never a top 20 spec like Torres and Sanchez or even top 50 like Andujar

If you want young home grown stars you need coaches on the MLB staff that can help players continue to do what got them their as well as add to other areas of their games. I think they have finally realized that starting in 2020 and have been bringing in coaches that will help them continue to develop the kids once they get to the MLB level. Thats why i think hiring Rojas and promoting Lawson is a very good thing for this next group coming

I could write a book what they messed up on the pitching side, but i think we've turned that corner with Blake, Cressey and Briend.

With salaries going up and up, to stay competitive long term they have to start getting production from these specs they are investing big dollars in. If we want a younger roster with dynamic young players, we have to have an environment that these kids are comfortable in and the coaches that can continue to make them better at the MLB level with consistent development ideas. Few players, when they 1st come up are complete players and need the kind of coaching to help them progressing on the right path

[dayners81]

Day thanks for posting and Kink I agree with you on this one.

I see it as some of the FO is not interested in playing the unknown commodity and to pay the known established player. MiLB guys are a crap shoot we all get it, but that is when you need to trust the employees in place that's position is there to provide data and statistics to make a calculated decision. Basically they are there to advise you (Cashman) on what capability you have and then to move forward with a decision. There are hundreds of intangibles to also consider but lets not go down that rabbit hole. Point is at some point you have to play the young guys.

agree 100%

[dayners81]

Don't know if this was posted but Correa just hired Scott Boras as his new agent so expect him to advocate for a Corey Seager type deal to get Carlos signed.

thanks for posting that, i hadn't heard that. I don't think that will help him with us. I don't have a clue who sign him to that kinda deal

[rrzubnyy]

I still love how speculation is the Yankees are in play for Correa. Geez, it is so obvious he is not coming to the Yankees. Hal is not giving the money to him for obvious reasons. And it has nothing to do with sign stealing BS. The guy is still a major talented SS. The Jeter blast is another so called reason that is stupid to use as well. Who cares what he thinks of former Yankees?

The real reason is money and length of contract. Hal knows he has Cole signed long term, he has to pay Stanton at least $16 million for another 7 years, and he has to pay Judge his money. There is no way he will have 3 big contracts again. He remembers CC, Teix and Alex all getting old with big money and the team suffered because of it.

Cole, Judge and Stanton is all folks, he will not add Correa to that list. No way!

Story for 1 year is all I see or Simmons for the stop gap until one of the two kids emerge.


And the next Derek Jeter that Hal and Brian want is Volpe at SS. Peraza will be trade bait for pitching. They are not giving Volpe up in any way shape or form. The kid is being groomed for the Jeter role. Volpe will be the Face of the Organization by 2025. Book it!

[Scottish]

thanks for posting that, i hadn't heard that. I don't think that will help him with us. I don't have a clue who sign him to that kinda deal

Be a very surprising turn if events for us to be in on him. Though it doesn’t hurt his negotiating numbers for us to be linked. Are all these rumors linked to 1 - we have nothing else to due due to CBA but speculate and 2 - surely due to CBA those in charge need to plan for multiple scenarios. Looks like once an agreement is place it’s going to be chaotic so surely plan forwards to factor in as many scenarios as possible. All of us have our favorites who we want signed / extended / traded but if plan a is a bust need others. CBA numbers also a big factor. Say 35m aav for Correa hard to swallow for me to be honest I think far better use of funds elsewhere. Also surely FO want fans onside and blasting the money on him doesn’t do this. Extending Judge however will do so.

[Kinkotheclown]

To the bolded, I agree. However is it also possible we may be over valuing the spects? Maybe getting too far ahead of ourselves? Maybe wishing, hoping and fantasying about the next core 4? How many players do the Yankees have in the top 100 prospects? 3 ? I realize they just landed the top dog in the international draft which is certainly worthy of celebration and excitement.

The reality:

According to MLB.com our farm ranked 19th last season, up from 22 in 2020. It's relative.

I don't intend to rain on anyone's parade, piss in their cornflakes or disparage the Yankees in any way. I simply take a more sobering view of the farm based on history. I want nothing more than success for any and all players in pinstripes. That said, I also like winning. I endorse moves that enhance Yankees chances.

Doc, I don't feel people are overvaluing anyone in this case. There are many times I would agree but this is a very specific situation. The only 2 guys we are discussing, who could be overvalued are Peraza and Volpe and in this situation, it's really just Peraza.
My counter to overvaluing a prospect is that the only way you know if you are overhauling, is to actually see if you are. We don't know if any of us are overvaluing Peraza. All we have is reports, videos, eye test of those who have sen him extensively. The only way we know, is if he plays.

Clearly my choice is on the bet. I am willing to bet that Peraza can play that spot. If he plays the D of which he's capable, I would live happily with a 225/280. 650+ OPS and 25-30 SB. I would gladly go through the growing pains at the plate if it meant a homegrown, dynamic SS in the field.
As I said, if you add a guy like Rizzo to the lineup, Judge, Stanton , Gallo, Rizzo, DJ, Hicks, Gary, Torres, Gio and then Peraza. I think that lineup is quite suitable for a young player you know will need time to adjust. If they go out and find a catcher or CF to go in that lineup, it's even better.

I would not have thought the same about Seager. He's a better all around player IMO. He's a lefty bat who makes excellent contact. He would also have less of an issue moving positions. That ship has sailed.

The reason I think those in the FO who are asking for Correa are idiots is because of things mentioned, why draft more SS when you have 3 in your top 5 specs at that spot? Why spend 350 mil on that spot when you have many in the organization saying you have the answer in house for much, much cheaper? Why do what you have always done and ignore the part of the group that wants to give a guy from the system a shot and go for the high price target? I call that idiotic and fearful. I call it idiotic that rather than giving a player a chance to fail or succeed or any combo in there, you cling to a high priced player who does not fit for the sake of money.
That is the crux. I believe those. who want Correa are more interested in the end monetary result and not what is best for building and sustaining a team

It's almost as if you build a literal farm and do it with great care regarding being organic, low carbon footprint and effective. you start to do that and when you bring it to the main distributor, they chop up all the stuff, cover it in some crappy, nasty coating and sell it and with the profits, hire a new high priced CEO

Adding a contract of 350+ for a player of questionable character, and history of back issues rather than give a guy who many feel can play the position today for pennies on the dollar, is idiotic and fearful

I am hoping that this FO proves me wrong and they truly want to invest in the player in the system.

I know they are ranked 19th. That doesn't mean they can't have some of the top specs. As you posted, they could have 8 in the top 100. The average would suggest that each team have 3-4 in the top 100.

[Kinkotheclown]

Be a very surprising turn if events for us to be in on him. Though it doesn’t hurt his negotiating numbers for us to be linked. Are all these rumors linked to 1 - we have nothing else to due due to CBA but speculate and 2 - surely due to CBA those in charge need to plan for multiple scenarios. Looks like once an agreement is place it’s going to be chaotic so surely plan forwards to factor in as many scenarios as possible. All of us have our favorites who we want signed / extended / traded but if plan a is a bust need others. CBA numbers also a big factor. Say 35m aav for Correa hard to swallow for me to be honest I think far better use of funds elsewhere. Also surely FO want fans onside and blasting the money on him doesn’t do this. Extending Judge however will do so.

I want absolutely zero to do with Correa. I hope the Yankees have the sack to walk away.

[drt1010]

Doc, I don't feel people are overvaluing anyone in this case. There are many times I would agree but this is a very specific situation. The only 2 guys we are discussing, who could be overvalued are Peraza and Volpe and in this situation, it's really just Peraza.
My counter to overvaluing a prospect is that the only way you know if you are overhauling, is to actually see if you are. We don't know if any of us are overvaluing Peraza. All we have is reports, videos, eye test of those who have sen him extensively. The only way we know, is if he plays.

Clearly my choice is on the bet. I am willing to bet that Peraza can play that spot. If he plays the D of which he's capable, I would live happily with a 225/280. 650+ OPS and 25-30 SB. I would gladly go through the growing pains at the plate if it meant a homegrown, dynamic SS in the field.
As I said, if you add a guy like Rizzo to the lineup, Judge, Stanton , Gallo, Rizzo, DJ, Hicks, Gary, Torres, Gio and then Peraza. I think that lineup is quite suitable for a young player you know will need time to adjust. If they go out and find a catcher or CF to go in that lineup, it's even better.

I would not have thought the same about Seager. He's a better all around player IMO. He's a lefty bat who makes excellent contact. He would also have less of an issue moving positions. That ship has sailed.

The reason I think those in the FO who are asking for Correa are idiots is because of things mentioned, why draft more SS when you have 3 in your top 5 specs at that spot? Why spend 350 mil on that spot when you have many in the organization saying you have the answer in house for much, much cheaper? Why do what you have always done and ignore the part of the group that wants to give a guy from the system a shot and go for the high price target? I call that idiotic and fearful. I call it idiotic that rather than giving a player a chance to fail or succeed or any combo in there, you cling to a high priced player who does not fit for the sake of money.
That is the crux. I believe those. who want Correa are more interested in the end monetary result and not what is best for building and sustaining a team

It's almost as if you build a literal farm and do it with great care regarding being organic, low carbon footprint and effective. you start to do that and when you bring it to the main distributor, they chop up all the stuff, cover it in some crappy, nasty coating and sell it and with the profits, hire a new high priced CEO

Adding a contract of 350+ for a player of questionable character, and history of back issues rather than give a guy who many feel can play the position today for pennies on the dollar, is idiotic and fearful

I am hoping that this FO proves me wrong and they truly want to invest in the player in the system.

I know they are ranked 19th. That doesn't mean they can't have some of the top specs. As you posted, they could have 8 in the top 100. The average would suggest that each team have 3-4 in the top 100.

Clown, as always you offer a very compelling argument, well reasoned and logical. Offering a rebuttal I run the risk of sounding like the entitled, spoiled Yankee fans I despise.

I have NO issue with developing home grown talent. In fact I love it. My issue is two fold. We have to deal in the present, there is a rather urgent pressing need and I am not convinced Perraza or Volpe is ready to step up to the ML level. I would love for the Jersey kid to get the chance, however the reality....he has just over 100 games at A-A+ ball. Peraza has a little more experience with 280ish games under his belt and actually played at AA level.

I don't believe in the "let the kid fail philosophy" as a learning experience. Imo it is best to have him prepared for success. Engrain positive thoughts and experiences from which one can build and grow. Imo it may be too early for either rook. I think Torres is a good example in some ways. He spent time in Chicago's development program and then a good chunk of time in the Yankees system, a total of 376 games in the minors. One could argue he may have been rushed. His bat was ready but clearly his glove wasn't, imo he has suffered as a consequence of that decision.

You are indeed correct, the Yankees appear to have cornered the market on SS. Sometimes it's about drafting the best athletes, but they do seem to have a ton of players all competing for PT. It makes a ton of sense not to block the position for 10 years. I agree. I advocated for a stop gap from the outset. Story on a short term deal was my ideal scenario. I believe they may still go that route if and when we play BB again.

I don't believe I ever suggested Correa. I defended him as a great player and dismissed the cheating as a viable reason to keep him from signing. But in the end I agree, he's an overpriced tool that doesn't fit in NY.

Let's assume they give Peraza a shot. He stumbles badly out of the gate, goes 2-70 with 10 errors. Do they send him down and try someone else? What effect does it have on him psychologically? Is it a growing experience or an unnecessary negative that could have been averted? I would love to see a full season of AA ball and then some time at AAA to season and refine his skills.

Jete spent almost 470 games in the minors in total. He spent parts of 9 seasons.

[Kinkotheclown]

Clown, as always you offer a very compelling argument, well reasoned and logical. Offering a rebuttal I run the risk of sounding like the entitled, spoiled Yankee fans I despise.

I have NO issue with developing home grown talent. In fact I love it. My issue is two fold. We have to deal in the present, there is a rather urgent pressing need and I am not convinced Perraza or Volpe is ready to step up to the ML level. I would love for the Jersey kid to get the chance, however the reality....he has just over 100 games at A-A+ ball. Peraza has a little more experience with 280ish games under his belt and actually played at AA level.

I don't believe in the "let the kid fail philosophy" as a learning experience. Imo it is best to have him prepared for success. Engrain positive thoughts and experiences from which one can build and grow. Imo it may be too early for either rook. I think Torres is a good example in some ways. He spent time in Chicago's development program and then a good chunk of time in the Yankees system, a total of 376 games in the minors. One could argue he may have been rushed. His bat was ready but clearly his glove wasn't, imo he has suffered as a consequence of that decision.

You are indeed correct, the Yankees appear to have cornered the market on SS. Sometimes it's about drafting the best athletes, but they do seem to have a ton of players all competing for PT. It makes a ton of sense not to block the position for 10 years. I agree. I advocated for a stop gap from the outset. Story on a short term deal was my ideal scenario. I believe they may still go that route if and when we play BB again.

I don't believe I ever suggested Correa. I defended him as a great player and dismissed the cheating as a viable reason to keep him from signing. But in the end I agree, he's an overpriced tool that doesn't fit in NY.

Let's assume they give Peraza a shot. He stumbles badly out of the gate, goes 2-70 with 10 errors. Do they send him down and try someone else? What effect does it have on him psychologically? Is it a growing experience or an unnecessary negative that could have been averted? I would love to see a full season of AA ball and then some time at AAA to season and refine his skills.

Jete spent almost 470 games in the minors in total. He spent parts of 9 seasons.

I understand your point about being prepared. That's another tricky one as exemplified by the FO. Some think he is and some don't. I am sure there is a division there as well, some think he will be that guy but want him to get a season or half season of AAA and some that think he's good to go. That lends even more to my comments about a guy like Correa. (I know you are not on his bandwagon ). If you are in the FO and have one group saying, go. One group saying it's not quite go time but it will be very soon, how is there a third group simply saying spend 350 for 10 years.? I question their judgement for many reasons.
For me, I agree that a player should be prepared. But no amount t of preparation will have them ready for the MLB level. They still need their first hit, HR, K, BB... They still feel that pressure no matter what.
I am probably more aggressive in that aspect. I think baptism by fire is a good way to go. See what their metal is. But you need to commit to them to do that.
I would be fully willing to commit to Peraza. If he has the numbers you suggest? Ok. I think if he stumbles like that, sit him for a few games. Bring him back to basics. Bring him back to his defense and let him kn ow, that is the focus and that you believe the offense will get better.

If he's bad for the year? You have Volpe who will likely be ready next year. And then Vargas and Arias soon after.

[EAGLES3658]

Day the Harper / Machado ship sailed long ago. I hear what you are saying and agree in part. I am not advocating a move for Correa. I am simply not convinced our farm hands are the panacea they are purported to be. I am more than willing to take a wait and see. In the mean time, there are holes and or questions at SS, 1B, rotation behind Cole and the BP needs attention at the back end. 3B may become an area of need as well. Is Sanchez on the block? How about a lefty bat or two? These holes need to be addressed sooner rather than later. Imo the Yankees can't afford to nurture a rook on the field. No on the job training in the Bronx.

I agree Doc. Being patient rarely works because prospects rarely work out to the extent they'd need to turn a team around. This team already wasted a prime window the last few seasons. Now, even with a few big moves they still aren't likely to be WS favorites. Three years ago, if they would have been aggressive they would have been by far the favorites to win a WS. There is a good chance they already wasted the primes of Judge and Stanton. Cole could probably be thrown in there as well as the Yankees signed him to 10 years knowing it is likely the first few years would be his only elite ones. Waiting on Peraza, Volpe, etc means they likely won't establish themselves until all the other good players on the Yanks are on the downturn. That is even assuming Peraza, Volpe, etc work out which is unlikely they all do. The Yankees have put themselves in a bad spot (a reason Cashman should be fired). They can't force big signings like Correa if they don't think he is a fit. They are sort of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation if there isn't any good fits on the FA/trade market.

[drt1010]

Clown, I think the disconnect in the FO is between the Hal supporting budget minded and the old school win at any cost faction leftovers. The penny pinchers don't necessarily believe the kids are ready or the immediate answer, but they are COST controlled! The Yankees have become far TOO corporate. Too much emphasis placed on the bottom line.

Part of me believes Hal wants a winner and is willing to spend in order to get there. Cole isn't enough. Gallo and Rizzo isn't going to get it done, although good players and much needed LF bat, one could question the cost in talent. Time will tell. The Yankees sent Kevin Alcantara, a 19-year-old outfielder in rookie ball, and Alexander Vizcaino, a 24-year-old Class A right-hander, to the Cubs for Rizzo. They traded four prospects to the Rangers for Gallo and a left-handed reliever, Joely Rodriguez. S Josh Smith (Yankees' No. 14 prospect per MLB Pipeline); 2B Ezequiel Duran (No. 15); 2B/OF Trevor Hauver (No. 23); RHP Glenn Otto (No. 28)

The Rangers will pay most of Gallo's remaining salary in 2021 (about $2.2 million) and the $900,000 owed to Rodríguez, according to a source.

Imo Alcantara is the one they may regret moving, however Rizzo has fit it nicely.

[metswon69]

[runnermjr1296]

I like the idea of developing from within, and with all I've read about with our depth at SS in the minor's and now the signing of Arias IMO it would be insane INSANE to spend money on Correa.
Lets just say he was a C? Lets say this was JT Realamuto on the market, then I would be first in line to sign him. We obviously do not have someone to play arguably the most important position on the field, and I've read some encouraging things about the guys at C in the minors but certainly not the glowing reports that we have for SS.
I think we should use our money to sign FA's but only where there is a need.

To not sign Cole would have been crazy, resigning Chapman? Yup all for it. When we scored the Tri-fecta in 09 with CC,AJ and Tex? man I was thrilled! Giambi,Mussina,El Duque,Tank,Catfish,Reggie the list goes on and on, but these guys filled specific needs that we had at the time of signing with no future relief in sight. Even with all the nice things I've read about our pitching prospects in the minors if there was an excellent starter out there,I'd like to see us sign him, because you can never ever ever have too much pitching.

I will say this, no we have no idea how these SS's that we've heard all these great thing's about will turn out but we have 3 presently with glowing reports and we just signed Arias. If NONE of these guys turn out to be the real deal then we as an organization have a lot bigger problems then not signing Correa, someone would really have to look at who's making the decisions on who to draft, and their development

[drt1010]

I like the idea of developing from within, and with all I've read about with our depth at SS in the minor's and now the signing of Arias IMO it would be insane INSANE to spend money on Correa.
Lets just say he was a C? Lets say this was JT Realamuto on the market, then I would be first in line to sign him. We obviously do not have someone to play arguably the most important position on the field, and I've read some encouraging things about the guys at C in the minors but certainly not the glowing reports that we have for SS.
I think we should use our money to sign FA's but only where there is a need.

To not sign Cole would have been crazy, resigning Chapman? Yup all for it. When we scored the Tri-fecta in 09 with CC,AJ and Tex? man I was thrilled! Giambi,Mussina,El Duque,Tank,Catfish,Reggie the list goes on and on, but these guys filled specific needs that we had at the time of signing with no future relief in sight. Even with all the nice things I've read about our pitching prospects in the minors if there was an excellent starter out there,I'd like to see us sign him, because you can never ever ever have too much pitching.

I will say this, no we have no idea how these SS's that we've heard all these great thing's about will turn out but we have 3 presently with glowing reports and we just signed Arias. If NONE of these guys turn out to be the real deal then we as an organization have a lot bigger problems then not signing Correa, someone would really have to look at who's making the decisions on who to draft, and their development

Runner I agree. I absolutely love the idea of a homegrown core. However drink no wine before it's time. That is my sole issue on the matter. I believe we have very good SS prospects. Two top 100, with several others waiting in the wings for their shot at the lime light. (I am interested and excited to see how Arias progresses.) I believe the talent is there, I question whether or not they are ready. Peraza is the closest, but as mentioned he has limited experience and none past AA. I don't believe in baptism by fire or throwing kids in the deep end to sink or swim.