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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I don't get it Norm signed for less. How would signing GTJ for more money save cap space?

    I am glad we got Precious. Hes one of my fav young players on the team already. But I think we could still have made that trade even if we kept Norm.
    GTJ had a smaller cap hold which would have let them sign a free agent like Holmes.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    GTJ had a smaller cap hold which would have let them sign a free agent like Holmes.
    I dont think we were ever looking to make a key free agent acquisition this offseason to be honest. How much money did we save by signing Trent Jr instead of Norm? and how much money did we realistically have to throw at a free agent? If that's the reason we made this deal, I think it sorta back fired. But ah well not a huge deal, Im not losing sleep over Norm.

    I just think its interesting to talk about this GTJ/Norm trade in hindsight.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I dont think we were ever looking to make a key free agent acquisition this offseason to be honest. How much money did we save by signing Trent Jr instead of Norm? and how much money did we realistically have to throw at a free agent? If that's the reason we made this deal, I think it sorta back fired. But ah well not a huge deal, Im not losing sleep over Norm.

    I just think its interesting to talk about this GTJ/Norm trade in hindsight.
    Right now it looks like a bad trade and I donít think anyone would disagree with that.

    GTjr is also a good asset right now though still. Could something like GTjr+dragic+picks and swaps for Beal+ A big man disappoint anyone?

    Another way to look at it is that a young controllable shooter is worth a Powell level contributor in the open market.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I don't get it Norm signed for less. How would signing GTJ for more money save cap space? I am glad we got Precious. Hes one of my fav young players on the team already. But I think we could still have made that trade even if we kept Norm.

    With respect to the bolded, keep in mind that GTJ only signed for 3 years and has a player option on the 3rd year which he can very well decline. Norm is only 28, he isn't going to decline in a year or two. He signed a very team friendly deal, and is under control for 5 years vs 2 with Gary. I just think that contract he is on now, would have been a great deal for us. Hes making 15.5 mill this year. In two years when Trent Jr opts out to be a free agent, there is no way he will resign for what Norm just singed for.

    You being glad we didn't sign Norm to a 5 year deal is just you trying to be positive bro, and I get that but you would have to agree that the 5 year deal he is on, is a bargain for Norm.
    Regarding the bolded, I'm just not sure the Powell deal will turn out great either. Longer length sounds like a bargain now, but there is risk with any longer term deal. I'm inherently a positive person, so it isn't really me "trying" to be anything, it is me just being me. The future outcome for the teams that carry of either of those contracts hasn't been determined yet. I don't love the GTJ deal. I don't really love the Norm deal either. It is the going rate for high volume floor spacers that sprinkle in a few other assets on the floor.

    Regarding the contract, GTJ had a cap hold of about 4 million. We could have signed free agents while holding his bird right for only 4 million against the cap. It was an issue of exploiting cap rules to maximize the ability to spend in free agency. The fact that their salaries are pretty much the same value now doesn't mean they impact salary cap rules in the same way.

    And yes, we could have made the Precious trade and resigned Norm. But those events didn't happen at the same time. In hindsight, I'd have preferred that outcome. But at the time of the Norm deal, I'm not convinced Precious was on the table.
    Last edited by pebloemer; 10-13-2021 at 03:52 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Right now it looks like a bad trade and I donít think anyone would disagree with that.

    GTjr is also a good asset right now though still. Could something like GTjr+dragic+picks and swaps for Beal+ A big man disappoint anyone?

    Another way to look at it is that a young controllable shooter is worth a Powell level contributor in the open market.
    If Wizards trade Bradley Beal, they aren't taking role players and picks. They will want young players with significant upside. Like they'd be asking for OG or Barnes as the centerpiece in any package. Or Simmons from the 76ers... etc.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I dont think we were ever looking to make a key free agent acquisition this offseason to be honest. How much money did we save by signing Trent Jr instead of Norm? and how much money did we realistically have to throw at a free agent? If that's the reason we made this deal, I think it sorta back fired. But ah well not a huge deal, Im not losing sleep over Norm.

    I just think its interesting to talk about this GTJ/Norm trade in hindsight.
    we had offer sheets out for a bunch of guys, just didnt work out. it was like 2M vs 11M basically. But I think they threw in the towel at the end of the year and let Gary get his starter criteria.
    Last edited by ecart; 10-13-2021 at 07:06 PM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    Regarding the bolded, I'm just not sure the Powell deal will turn out great either. Longer length sounds like a bargain now, but there is risk with any longer term deal. I'm inherently a positive person, so it isn't really me "trying" to be anything, it is me just being me. The future outcome for the teams that carry of either of those contracts hasn't been determined yet. I don't love the GTJ deal. I don't really love the Norm deal either. It is the going rate for high volume floor spacers that sprinkle in a few other assets on the floor.

    Regarding the contract, GTJ had a cap hold of about 4 million. We could have signed free agents while holding his bird right for only 4 million against the cap. It was an issue of exploiting cap rules to maximize the ability to spend in free agency. The fact that their salaries are pretty much the same value now doesn't mean they impact salary cap rules in the same way.

    And yes, we could have made the Precious trade and resigned Norm. But those events didn't happen at the same time. In hindsight, I'd have preferred that outcome. But at the time of the Norm deal, I'm not convinced Precious was on the table.
    i think they threw in the towel and let him hit the starter criteria when we started tanking but it could have easily been 2M.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    i think they threw in the towel and let him hit the starter criteria when we started tanking but it could have easily been 2M.
    For sure. I didn't want to add another wrinkle to the discussion. If the idea of cap holds remains foreign in the discussion, I figured I'd simplify it for the purpose of the point. Doesn't make a difference to the point, but of course an extra 2 million cap space could have made a difference (over a 4-5 contract that is 10+ million).

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    Regarding the bolded, I'm just not sure the Powell deal will turn out great either. Longer length sounds like a bargain now, but there is risk with any longer term deal. I'm inherently a positive person, so it isn't really me "trying" to be anything, it is me just being me. The future outcome for the teams that carry of either of those contracts hasn't been determined yet. I don't love the GTJ deal. I don't really love the Norm deal either. It is the going rate for high volume floor spacers that sprinkle in a few other assets on the floor.

    Regarding the contract, GTJ had a cap hold of about 4 million. We could have signed free agents while holding his bird right for only 4 million against the cap. It was an issue of exploiting cap rules to maximize the ability to spend in free agency. The fact that their salaries are pretty much the same value now doesn't mean they impact salary cap rules in the same way.

    And yes, we could have made the Precious trade and resigned Norm. But those events didn't happen at the same time. In hindsight, I'd have preferred that outcome. But at the time of the Norm deal, I'm not convinced Precious was on the table.
    I guess where we differ is on Norm and his contract. I think he signed on for a pretty team friendly deal.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Right now it looks like a bad trade and I donít think anyone would disagree with that.

    GTjr is also a good asset right now though still. Could something like GTjr+dragic+picks and swaps for Beal+ A big man disappoint anyone?

    Another way to look at it is that a young controllable shooter is worth a Powell level contributor in the open market.
    Yeah it would disappoint the Wizards lol. They arenít trading him for that bro.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Yeah it would disappoint the Wizards lol. They arenít trading him for that bro.
    Insert other assets into the dragic part of that trade if you want, point is heís still a young player and thatís what teams want in big trades.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Insert other assets into the dragic part of that trade if you want, point is heís still a young player and thatís what teams want in big trades.
    Yeah GTJ is still an asset. I just donít think the Wizards will actually trade Beal. And he has no problem wasting his career there lol. But I get what youíre saying. How about Dragic, GTJ, Flynn + a pick for Simmons

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I guess where we differ is on Norm and his contract. I think he signed on for a pretty team friendly deal.
    I felt that way at the time, but watching this team, I do wonder if it is easier to get the type of shooting and complimentary player like Powell at lower costs. This applies to Trent as well. Neither are stout defenders and both best function in the system, working off their teammates. I feel like we have found guys that can do that for much cheaper. Svi is a minimum contract and brings similar assets (did no one really want this guy?). We have been successful with guys like Yuta. I think Champagnie has a chance to have some similar complimentary skills.

    There is also the contract situation.
    - FVV, Anunoby and Siakam all will expire in a couple years.
    - Achiuwa and Flynn have 3 years left in their rookie deals
    - Barnes has 4 years in his rookie deal.
    - Boucher is expiring
    - Bantonís deal is only for a couple seasons

    Do we want Norm on a large deal 3 years from now? In isolation the deal looks fine right now but I donít have the same confidence anymore that I will feel that way down the road. I think this team can find guys like Norm (or Trent) for cheaper.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I felt that way at the time, but watching this team, I do wonder if it is easier to get the type of shooting and complimentary player like Powell at lower costs. This applies to Trent as well. Neither are stout defenders and both best function in the system, working off their teammates. I feel like we have found guys that can do that for much cheaper. Svi is a minimum contract and brings similar assets (did no one really want this guy?). We have been successful with guys like Yuta. I think Champagnie has a chance to have some similar complimentary skills.

    There is also the contract situation.
    - FVV, Anunoby and Siakam all will expire in a couple years.
    - Achiuwa and Flynn have 3 years left in their rookie deals
    - Barnes has 4 years in his rookie deal.
    - Boucher is expiring
    - Bantonís deal is only for a couple seasons

    Do we want Norm on a large deal 3 years from now? In isolation the deal looks fine right now but I donít have the same confidence anymore that I will feel that way down the road. I think this team can find guys like Norm (or Trent) for cheaper.
    Another MU gem. But Svi much like Yuta, and Wainwright have a lot to prove. I'm not sold on any of them yet, but I have seen flashes that I like from all of them.

    I like Norms deal better because:
    The term is longer, but the annual salary is lower, giving the team more control to trade him in the future. Trent can walk in 2 years.
    Norm is more of a proven player
    Trent needs to prove he can earn that contract because he hasn't shown enough to be worth that much. I think he was given that much based on potential.
    Norm has already earned his contract, and probably could have netted more. Alot of us thought hed get closer to 20 mill. in hindsight what he signed for seems extreamly reasonable.

    I like Trents upside more, but we need to start seeing more from him. I think if we dont trade Trent he will command something ridic in 2 years. So I wouldn't even mind shopping him tbh.

  15. #135
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    Also I simply like Norms overall game more, he has more tools on the offensive end and he is currently being used as a 3rd option behind Dame & CJ. So in that role I think he is on a very team friendly contract. Not to mention Norm did have the ability to turn it up in the post season as well.

    Im not too worried about it, this is just for discussion sake. I think Trent will work out fine really but I still dont get why he isnt the consensus starter at the 2. I feel like that was his job to lose and what we paid him for, yet weve had Dragic starting which is just strange to me.

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