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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Now we know
    Thereís a decent chance MJís TS% is actually better than Bronís because he didnít take very many 3ís while LeBron did and didnít shoot well, and because he got to the line far more than LeBron did relative to the number of FGs he took.

    Not to mention, once you adjust their TS% to their eraís average, Jordanís is probably much better than Bronís relatively.[/QUOTE]

    I donít think so. His overall fg% is still lower than Lebronís even with the 3ís so that just points even more into Brons favor as far as TS goesÖmore 3ís on a higher pct of overall shooting leads to higher TS for Bron, and there was only 6 more free throws on 14 more attempts by mike, so looking at the numbers there is zero chance mike had a higher TS than Bron in the 4th quarter of nba finals appearances by both players. Bron was better, scored more, and scored more efficiently than Mike in the 4th quarters of nba finals for sure
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 10-01-2021 at 01:08 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    I donít think so. His overall fg% is still lower than Lebronís even with the 3ís so that just points even more into Brons favor as far as TS goesÖmore 3ís on a higher pct of overall shooting leads to higher TS for Bron, and there was only 6 more free throws on 14 more attempts by mike, so looking at the numbers there is zero chance mike had a higher TS than Bron in the 4th quarter of nba finals appearances by both players. Bron was better, scored more, and scored more efficiently than Mike in the 4th quarters of nba finals for sure
    I just put the numbers in a TS% calculator and LeBron's was higher (55.68% to 52.68%), so you're right that gross TS% Bron's is higher. However, once you factor in the league's relative TS% for the years they played they are essentially equal (LeBron probably still has a slight edge however).

    Then there's also the scoring volume we must consider, to where LeBron scores nearly a full point less per 4th quarter than MJ: 7.21 to 8.05, which again becomes a larger discrepancy when you look at how much less teams were scoring in MJ's era.

    EDIT: And even then, despite the lower scoring era MJ played in, his teams actually scored the same amount of points in the 4th quarter as LeBron's teams (23.14 to 23.32). Then consider that MJ scored 35% of the team's 4th quarter points whereas LeBron only scored 30% of his, it seems like MJ was clearly the better scorer in the 4th quarter in the Finals.
    Last edited by valade16; 10-01-2021 at 02:36 PM.

  3. #63
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    is it too boring to just say they probably bring roughly the same scoring value? (altho I lean MJ if we're talking peak only and throwing longevity out the window)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I just put the numbers in a TS% calculator and LeBron's was higher (55.68% to 52.68%), so you're right that gross TS% Bron's is higher. However, once you factor in the league's relative TS% for the years they played they are essentially equal (LeBron probably still has a slight edge however).

    Then there's also the scoring volume we must consider, to where LeBron scores nearly a full point less per 4th quarter than MJ: 7.21 to 8.05, which again becomes a larger discrepancy when you look at how much less teams were scoring in MJ's era.

    EDIT: And even then, despite the lower scoring era MJ played in, his teams actually scored the same amount of points in the 4th quarter as LeBron's teams (23.14 to 23.32). Then consider that MJ scored 35% of the team's 4th quarter points whereas LeBron only scored 30% of his, it seems like MJ was clearly the better scorer in the 4th quarter in the Finals.
    Plus MJ never got destroyed in a 5 game track meet where neither team played defense


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I just put the numbers in a TS% calculator and LeBron's was higher (55.68% to 52.68%), so you're right that gross TS% Bron's is higher. However, once you factor in the league's relative TS% for the years they played they are essentially equal (LeBron probably still has a slight edge however).

    Then there's also the scoring volume we must consider, to where LeBron scores nearly a full point less per 4th quarter than MJ: 7.21 to 8.05, which again becomes a larger discrepancy when you look at how much less teams were scoring in MJ's era.

    EDIT: And even then, despite the lower scoring era MJ played in, his teams actually scored the same amount of points in the 4th quarter as LeBron's teams (23.14 to 23.32). Then consider that MJ scored 35% of the team's 4th quarter points whereas LeBron only scored 30% of his, it seems like MJ was clearly the better scorer in the 4th quarter in the Finals.
    Iíd bet the scoring gap is smaller than the shooting gap. Still itís Lebron is the point. Thatís just the fact of this particular matter. Doesnít mean much as far as whoís better, just means that Bron has been an absolute beast in the 4th quarter of nba finals. Maybe the best ever in that dept, and narratives saying otherwise are absolutely trash and baseless

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Iíd bet the scoring gap is smaller than the shooting gap. Still itís Lebron is the point. Thatís just the fact of this particular matter. Doesnít mean much as far as whoís better, just means that Bron has been an absolute beast in the 4th quarter of nba finals. Maybe the best ever in that dept, and narratives saying otherwise are absolutely trash and baseless
    Nah.

    It's not LeBron. I'll take the guy who scores more and who anchors an offense that scores more in the 4th over someone who does both less at a slightly higher %.


    I agree LeBron has been a beast in the 4th quarter of the Finals, but not MJ beast.

  7. #67
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    Lebron is a better closer/scorer than Michael Jordan in NBA finals 4th quarters

    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Iíd bet the scoring gap is smaller than the shooting gap. Still itís Lebron is the point. Thatís just the fact of this particular matter. Doesnít mean much as far as whoís better, just means that Bron has been an absolute beast in the 4th quarter of nba finals. Maybe the best ever in that dept, and narratives saying otherwise are absolutely trash and baseless
    Baseless and trash like repeatedly saying the Bulls were a foul call away from the NBA finals to prop up your narrative even though you know it isnít true?


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    Last edited by ewing; 10-02-2021 at 08:22 AM.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    No he isnít

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    We already know LeBron is good at padding his stats. There's also no adjustment for playing on stacked teams with much more offensive help.

    Jordan was a 1 man offense. And he still climbed the mountain 6 times out of 6 times.
    Pretty much.

    This Lebron vs Jordan nonsense has to end at some point. Too much Lebron propaganda has already done enough damage.

    Lebron ain't better than Tim Duncan and the Kobe question isn't really giving the proper answer for Lebron's argument and that's just two guys from his time. Steph Curry achieved more in less time during Lebron's prime as well, which isn't really helping either.

    Since the quality argument fails Lebron, his fans have been extremely busy to find any quantity ones just to keep him in conversations he doesn't belong in. Aren't you getting tired of this?


    The irony is that people who despised Jordan (aka myself and other Knicks fans, along with a large number of NBA fans at the time) spoke so highly of him during and after his career just speaks volume. Lebron doesn't give these vibes. Kobe kinda did for various reasons. Lebron doesn't give that, he's just annoying and the only thing that made him rather hated was leaving Cleveland on live television but even they forgave him after a bit... His fanboys are even more annoying!
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 10-02-2021 at 01:46 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Pretty much.

    This Lebron vs Jordan nonsense has to end at some point. Too much Lebron propaganda has already done enough damage.

    Lebron ain't better than Tim Duncan and the Kobe question isn't really giving the proper answer for Lebron's argument and that's just two guys from his time. Steph Curry achieved more in less time during Lebron's prime as well, which isn't really helping either.

    Since the quality argument fails Lebron, his fans have been extremely busy to find any quantity ones just to keep him in conversations he doesn't belong in. Aren't you getting tired of this?


    The irony is that people who despised Jordan (aka myself and other Knicks fans, along with a large number of NBA fans at the time) spoke so highly of him during and after his career just speaks volume. Lebron doesn't give these vibes. Kobe kinda did for various reasons. Lebron doesn't give that, he's just annoying and the only thing that made him rather hated was leaving Cleveland on live television but even they forgave him after a bit... His fanboys are even more annoying!
    No one cares what the guy who said Dominique Wilkins was better than Bron thinks about Bron

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Nah.

    It's not LeBron. I'll take the guy who scores more and who anchors an offense that scores more in the 4th over someone who does both less at a slightly higher %.


    I agree LeBron has been a beast in the 4th quarter of the Finals, but not MJ beast.
    Thatís fine that you take Mike, but statistically Lebron was actual better offensively in 4th quarter nba finals games

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Thatís fine that you take Mike, but statistically Lebron was actual better offensively in 4th quarter nba finals games
    Real fans/analysts stop counting when you keep losing.

    It's the reason few attempt to make a Wilt GOAT argument. He could score 50 every game if he wanted and put up 20+/20+ double doubles, but if you keep losing in the playoffs or Finals it's useless.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Thatís fine that you take Mike, but statistically Lebron was actual better offensively in 4th quarter nba finals games
    Just like the bulls were a foul call away from the NBA finals in 1994


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Thatís fine that you take Mike, but statistically Lebron was actual better offensively in 4th quarter nba finals games
    Nah, I showed you the statistics. Relative to era he was marginally more efficient while scoring less and leading teams that scored less.

    Thatís not better.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Nah, I showed you the statistics. Relative to era he was marginally more efficient while scoring less and leading teams that scored less.

    Thatís not better.
    Man so if the Lebron and Mike had switched statistics you would be saying Lebron was the better player with the lower fg% lower 3 pt% and lower free throw pct in the finals 4th quarters? I donít think you would. Plus you never did break down points scored in 4th quarters.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I just put the numbers in a TS% calculator and LeBron's was higher (55.68% to 52.68%), so you're right that gross TS% Bron's is higher. However, once you factor in the league's relative TS% for the years they played they are essentially equal (LeBron probably still has a slight edge however).

    Then there's also the scoring volume we must consider, to where LeBron scores nearly a full point less per 4th quarter than MJ: 7.21 to 8.05, which again becomes a larger discrepancy when you look at how much less teams were scoring in MJ's era.

    EDIT: And even then, despite the lower scoring era MJ played in, his teams actually scored the same amount of points in the 4th quarter as LeBron's teams (23.14 to 23.32). Then consider that MJ scored 35% of the team's 4th quarter points whereas LeBron only scored 30% of his, it seems like MJ was clearly the better scorer in the 4th quarter in the Finals.
    When I did the TS calculations I ended up having Jordan ahead of Lebron. I had Lebron with a .628 TS% and Jordan with a .638 TS%.

    Lebron has 397 Pts on 316 shots
    Jordan has 282 Pts on 221 shots

    Iím guessing you added 3Pt shots and total shots together?
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 10-03-2021 at 11:53 AM.

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