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  1. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    The result is the same, yes. Losing possession is losing possession. Turnover on downs is still turning the ball over, itís literally in the name.

    Hereís my point.

    On that 4th down play for Philly, they donít convert. Honestly, it doesnít matter how. Fumble, int, missed FG, whatever. Same result, itís the other teams ball. Possession over.
    On certain plays maybe but itís definitely not the same.
    Going for it on 4th is a calculated decision by the coach. An INT or fumble is not.
    Being at the opponents 43 yard line and deciding not to punt or kick a 60 yard FG and failing the conversion is not the same as a random fumble that could be inside your own 20.
    On 4th down the coach is deciding the risk. On INTs or fumbles the coach is not. Thereís generally a huge difference.

  2. #767
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    It has come to the attention of the Moderators of this forum that members of this site are targeting one specific member by referring to him as an "Artificial Intelligence". Moderators of this site are taking a Zero Tolerance Policy (ZTP) in this matter. If anyone decides to insult this member, the poster will receive an infraction, no questions asked.

    So in other words "Stop It."

    This is bullying and it is name calling.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  3. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    On certain plays maybe but itís definitely not the same.
    Going for it on 4th is a calculated decision by the coach. An INT or fumble is not.
    Being at the opponents 43 yard line and deciding not to punt or kick a 60 yard FG and failing the conversion is not the same as a random fumble that could be inside your own 20.
    On 4th down the coach is deciding the risk. On INTs or fumbles the coach is not. Thereís generally a huge difference.
    Again there are a lotta woulda, coulda shoulda , Iím not disputing that. All Iím saying is losing possession is losing possession. Itís really not that hard and not intend it to be any more than that. At the end of the day it doesnít matter how you lost possession.

  4. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Again there are a lotta woulda, coulda shoulda , Iím not disputing that. All Iím saying is losing possession is losing possession. Itís really not that hard and not intend it to be any more than that. At the end of the day it doesnít matter how you lost possession.
    Youíre using it to say Hurts had a turnover.

    Itís a silly thing to do because I doubt youíve ever brought up Wentz failed 4th down conversions against him.

    Result is the same but itís silly to even talk about it when comparing it to an INT or Fumble. Itís clear what youíre doing as Iíve never seen someone compare a failed 4th down in the manner you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  5. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Again there are a lotta woulda, coulda shoulda , Iím not disputing that. All Iím saying is losing possession is losing possession. Itís really not that hard and not intend it to be any more than that. At the end of the day it doesnít matter how you lost possession.
    Yes it matters. It most certainly does matter how you lost possession.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  6. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Youíre using it to say Hurts had a turnover.

    Itís a silly thing to do because I doubt youíve ever brought up Wentz failed 4th down conversions against him.

    Result is the same but itís silly to even talk about it when comparing it to an INT or Fumble. Itís clear what youíre doing as Iíve never seen someone compare a failed 4th down in the manner you are.
    I'm not using it to say he had one in terms of me saying anything bad about it. In fact, I don't blame him at all for that, it's on the play calling there. Philly Philly needs to be retired.

    I don't care who the qb is and I'm not interested in blaming them for not converting. It's just a simple end result thing for me, both do the same thing.

  7. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Yes it matters. It most certainly does matter how you lost possession.
    Why?

    If Wentz fumbles on that play or he throws the pick or the rb doesn't convert all of them end the drive in the same result.

  8. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    I'm not using it to say he had one in terms of me saying anything bad about it. In fact, I don't blame him at all for that, it's on the play calling there. Philly Philly needs to be retired.

    I don't care who the qb is and I'm not interested in blaming them for not converting. It's just a simple end result thing for me, both do the same thing.
    You are. The original post was QBs saying hurts didnít suck and that heís had no turnovers. Thatís when you chimed in talking about the failed 4th down.

    I donít think Iíve ever seen you bring up failed 4th downs as a turnover for any other QB. Iíd be willing to bet youíve put the numbers in a post of INTs/fumbles for Wentz but never once lumped in failed 4ths.

    As mamba said, itís a weird hill to die on.

    Failed 4ths should never be talked about as a QB stat as you starting this off with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  9. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    You are. The original post was QBs saying hurts didnít suck and that heís had no turnovers. Thatís when you chimed in talking about the failed 4th down.

    I donít think Iíve ever seen you bring up failed 4th downs as a turnover for any other QB. Iíd be willing to bet youíve put the numbers in a post of INTs/fumbles for Wentz but never once lumped in failed 4ths.

    As mamba said, itís a weird hill to die on.

    Failed 4ths should never be talked about as a QB stat as you starting this off with.
    Iím not putting it as a qb stat.

  10. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Why?

    If Wentz fumbles on that play or he throws the pick or the rb doesn't convert all of them end the drive in the same result.
    Because the failed 4th is most likely to happen in the opponents side.

    An INT or fumble is happening anywhere.

    So it matters regardless of the result being the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  11. #776
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    Week 2: Early & Late Game Matchups

    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Is not converting on 4th no longer a turnover/negative just because Hurts did it?
    Then what the hell does this mean?

    Even if youíre not counting it as a QB stat, youíre still using it as a negative to Hurts (spelled right out) when itís never been brought up against Wentz or pretty much any QB ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  12. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Because the failed 4th is most likely to happen in the opponents side.

    An INT or fumble is happening anywhere.

    So it matters regardless of the result being the same.
    Youíre confusing what Iím saying. Context matters, already said that.

    Wentz gets sacked on 4th down, series over. Wentz throws pick on 4th instead, who cares, same result. Other teams ball.

  13. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Then what the hell does this mean?

    Even if youíre not counting it as a QB stat, youíre still using it as a negative to Hurts (spelled right out) when itís never been brought up against Wentz or pretty much any QB ever.
    At some point someone in this thread used the failed 4th as a negative on Wentz, so I asked if it wasnít because it was hurts.

    Iím not meaning it to be negative towards hurts, I give him zero blame in that play failing.

  14. #779
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    I can appreciate others may feel different, itís just a results thing to me.

  15. #780
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    Week 2: Early & Late Game Matchups

    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Youíre confusing what Iím saying. Context matters, already said that.

    Wentz gets sacked on 4th down, series over. Wentz throws pick on 4th instead, who cares, same result. Other teams ball.
    Losing possession is losing possession but it matters because of where it happens.

    Unless the games already set youíre never going to see a failed 4th on your own side of the field. (Or at least is Immediate FG range) Youíre going to see int/fumble on your own side a lot more.

    Where it happens is setting the opponent up for an easier chance to score.

    If Wentz gets sacked on 4th itís failed at the spot. Wentz gets picked on 4th is possible the opponent advances or even scores.

    I donít think looking at results of change of possession is what you should be doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

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