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  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Is not converting on 4th no longer a turnover/negative just because Hurts did it?
    A turnover on downs is different from a player turning the ball over by interception or fumble. Getting sacked on 4th down is a negative. But again, I only acknowledged that this happened to Wentz. You assumed I put the whole blame on him for that play. Greg Ward throwing the ball away on 4th and goal from the 3 was a big goof though.

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    A turnover on downs is different from a player turning the ball over by interception or fumble. Getting sacked on 4th down is a negative. But again, I only acknowledged that this happened to Wentz. You assumed I put the whole blame on him for that play. Greg Ward throwing the ball away on 4th and goal from the 3 was a big goof though.
    Getting sacked on 4th is no different than any other failure to convert on 4th. Same result.

    Also, turnover on downs is the same result as fumble/int.

  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Getting sacked on 4th is no different than any other failure to convert on 4th. Same result.

    Also, turnover on downs is the same result as fumble/int.
    A turnover on downs is not the same as INT or fumble. Turning it over on downs is a calculated risk where you are somewhat comfortable gambling.
    An INT or fumble is usually unexpected and generally has much more dire consequences.

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Getting sacked on 4th is no different than any other failure to convert on 4th. Same result.

    Also, turnover on downs is the same result as fumble/int.
    No, the context matters a lot.

    4th and 2 from the 50, a 40-yard pass that is intercepted and returned 5 yards is better than a 8-yard sack.

    Especially when you're evaluating individual players, but again I did not blame Wentz for getting sacked on 4th down.

    If you had watched the Eagles game, you'd know that Greg Ward was the QB on the failed 4th down attempt at the goal line.

  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Getting sacked on 4th is no different than any other failure to convert on 4th. Same result.

    Also, turnover on downs is the same result as fumble/int.
    Ummm an int and/or fumble can happen at any down.

    Results the same as in turnover but a failed 4th down isnít the same as an int/fumble.

    Me thinks youíre trying to hard with this ne
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    They are pretty open about how they rank people. They analyze each play by how well the person played in it, so it's not necessarily about the outcome of it or the game. Of course there are a lot of factors they don't know, so it's far from a perfect system. It also means players with fewer snaps can get higher scores due to sampling.

    I don't reference PFF because I believe in their grades so much, but because it's pretty much the only objective grading of players there is.

    So when BDawk says Hurts sucked last game, what can I do? Say that he didn't. Link to PFF. That's it.

    Hurts was great in week 1. That can't be denied. He did enough to win in week 2. He didn't "suck" because he had good production and didn't turn the ball over. He played a tough defense and was pressured on half his passing attempts. So I'm not surprised PFF gives him a good grade. I'm am a little surprised he's #2 but that will likely go down in the future, because I don't think he's the 2nd best QB in the NFL.

    The main point really is that Hurts didn't suck against the 49ers, and you've got to be heavily biased against him to think so.
    I guess I should have withheld judgement because I was assuming they aren't open because I hadn't read much about it. The bolded must be why some of their rankings can be so misleading then. I wish they'd have some sort of threshold then.

    Hurts definitely has not sucked this year. His numbers last game are also very close to being a lot better if not for a couple of penalties.

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Ummm an int and/or fumble can happen at any down.

    Results the same as in turnover but a failed 4th down isnít the same as an int/fumble.

    Me thinks youíre trying to hard with this ne
    Iím merely saying that losing possession is losing possession.

    Only that. Iím not suggesting it to be a knock or to point anyone out.

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamba42 View Post
    I guess I should have withheld judgement because I was assuming they aren't open because I hadn't read much about it. The bolded must be why some of their rankings can be so misleading then. I wish they'd have some sort of threshold then.

    Hurts definitely has not sucked this year. His numbers last game are also very close to being a lot better if not for a couple of penalties.
    Your last sentence is true for everyone and nobody said he sucked this year. He was really good week 1 and began week 2 playing well (I acknowledged that as it was happening).
    Last edited by BDawk4Prez; 09-23-2021 at 05:32 AM.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    No, the context matters a lot.

    4th and 2 from the 50, a 40-yard pass that is intercepted and returned 5 yards is better than a 8-yard sack.

    Especially when you're evaluating individual players, but again I did not blame Wentz for getting sacked on 4th down.

    If you had watched the Eagles game, you'd know that Greg Ward was the QB on the failed 4th down attempt at the goal line.
    This isnít about players, just that losing possession is losing possession no matter how that happens. Itís always the same result, possession lost. This really isnít a ďblame someoneĒ statement abs doesnít have anything to do with anything other than losing the ball.

    But to your last point, I watched the game, and hurts still lined up at QB, ward just ended up with the ball last. Maybe it was you that didnít watch?

  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    This isnít about players, just that losing possession is losing possession no matter how that happens. Itís always the same result, possession lost. This really isnít a ďblame someoneĒ statement abs doesnít have anything to do with anything other than losing the ball.

    But to your last point, I watched the game, and hurts still lined up at QB, ward just ended up with the ball last. Maybe it was you that didnít watch?
    Are you seriously ****ing kidding me with this **** right now? I mean, seriously? What the **** is wrong with you?

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Are you seriously ****ing kidding me with this **** right now? I mean, seriously? What the **** is wrong with you?
    Yes?

    Which part do you disagree with? Losing possession isnít losing possession or that Hurts wasnít the QB on that play?

  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Yes?

    Which part do you disagree with? Losing possession isnít losing possession or that Hurts wasnít the QB on that play?
    You honestly think that failing a 4th down conversion is the same as a INT or a fumble?

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    Yes?

    Which part do you disagree with? Losing possession isnít losing possession or that Hurts wasnít the QB on that play?
    You are the context king when it comes to Wentz but context doesn't matter for turnover on downs vs fumble lost or interception?

    I don't think that's the hill you want to die on lol.

    I agree with you that Wentz hasn't been bad but like Padme with Anakin, you're going down a path I can't follow!

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    You honestly think that failing a 4th down conversion is the same as a INT or a fumble?
    The result is the same, yes. Losing possession is losing possession. Turnover on downs is still turning the ball over, itís literally in the name.

    Hereís my point.

    On that 4th down play for Philly, they donít convert. Honestly, it doesnít matter how. Fumble, int, missed FG, whatever. Same result, itís the other teams ball. Possession over.

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamba42 View Post
    You are the context king when it comes to Wentz but context doesn't matter for turnover on downs vs fumble lost or interception?

    I don't think that's the hill you want to die on lol.

    I agree with you that Wentz hasn't been bad but like Padme with Anakin, you're going down a path I can't follow!
    Of course context matters. Thereís no need to overcomplicate my statement though.

    Earlier in the thread it was stated Wentz played poorly due to ďtwo turnovers inside the 5Ē/goalineĒ. Those were both used to justify him being meh. For me, I donít care how the turnover occurred, itís the same result, no points and other team gets ball.

    Of course thereís risk/reward on 4th down tries and int/fumbles arenít calculated risks other than maybe heaving something 50 yards on 3rd looking for PI and a pick ends up similar to punting.

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