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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I wouldn't. The Dodgers make the playoffs without Trea Turner and he's only played 50 games for them. As for Burnes, he leads the league in fWAR, has the lowest ERA in the majors, has the lowest FIP in almost a quarter century. He's almost a lock win the Cy Young. He deserves more consideration for MVP but he won't get it because he's a SP.
    The Dodgers don't win the division without him though.

    You have to be pretty outrageous as a starting pitcher to get MVP votes, and lowest FIP in 25 years really isn't that outrageous.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    The Dodgers don't win the division without him though.

    You have to be pretty outrageous as a starting pitcher to get MVP votes, and lowest FIP in 25 years really isn't that outrageous.
    Cute but the Dodgers haven't technically won the division yet. Was Yoenis Cespedes the MVP when he carried the Mets to the division title in 2015 after being acquired from the A's? I mean he was amazing down the stretch and wasn't close to winning the award. Its going to a guy who has played on the same team all year.

    It is significant when its the lowest FIP since Pedro in 1999. Again, SP just don't get the same love but Burnes deserves the MVP imo.

  3. #93
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    Dodgers have the highest team war in the game.

    Soooo yeah
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I wouldn't. The Dodgers make the playoffs without Trea Turner and he's only played 50 games for them. As for Burnes, he leads the league in fWAR, has the lowest ERA in the majors, has the lowest FIP in almost a quarter century. He's almost a lock win the Cy Young. He deserves more consideration for MVP but he won't get it because he's a SP.
    I know it's all relative, but I've always hated comparing WAR of pitchers and positional guys. I get the calculations are both meant to show value above what should be a similar replacement level player, but given how wildly different paths are taken to get to the result, I have a hard time comparing the actual number to one another.

    I brought up burnes originally as more of a point of valuing team success, that being said, I'm cool with MVP being almost exclusively a position player award. I get it's not the definition and oftentimes goes to the best offensive player anyways, but Cy Young is a pitcher award and MVP is about the only thing that can truly encapsulate the full positional player award. Hank Aaron, silver sluggers and so on are all focused on one aspect whereas MVP you can actually win by contributing on defense and the bases in addition to offense. Ohtani being the exception as a 2 way player I think you take his pitching and hitting together obviously.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Cute but the Dodgers haven't technically won the division yet. Was Yoenis Cespedes the MVP when he carried the Mets to the division title in 2015 after being acquired from the A's? I mean he was amazing down the stretch and wasn't close to winning the award. Its going to a guy who has played on the same team all year.

    It is significant when its the lowest FIP since Pedro in 1999. Again, SP just don't get the same love but Burnes deserves the MVP imo.
    I mean, cespedes changed leagues, so that alone hurts, as he didn't contribute all of that WAR or those stats in the same league. Likewise, he finished like 9th among NL position players in fWAR even if you give him his AL stats. Turner finished the season as the top fWAR position player in the NL if you include his Nats stats, which were also accured in the NL. So I think the argument between the two is very different.

    I don't think turner wins it, but I'd be cool with it for sure. Because defensive stats in particular are inconsistent, splitting hairs with a 0.1 or 0.2 difference in WAR is pretty pointless, so Turner, Harper or Soto could all reasonably win it. I don't really have an issue with whoever wins, but if the argument for Harper over Soto is his team won more games, then it feels wierd not to include Turner in that discussion as well. Even if you don't want to give turner credit for all 106 dodgers wins, if you take the Nats record when he left and the dodgers record when he arrived, his team's still won something like 92 wins.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 10-04-2021 at 03:09 PM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    The Dodgers don't win the division without him though.

    You have to be pretty outrageous as a starting pitcher to get MVP votes, and lowest FIP in 25 years really isn't that outrageous.
    I mean, it's lowest in 25 years and 2nd lowest since WW2. Depending how you feel about FIP as a stat, that's pretty darn impressive. Again, not saying he should win it, but 2nd lowest FIP since the 40s to go along with league leader in ERA, K/9 and K/BB is pretty impressive. Add in the MVP race lacks a true stand out guy and I guess there could be some consideration.

    Take out last year's short season and if Soto wins it, he'd be the lowest rWAR winner in the NL since 2010, where he'd be tied with Votto. You'd have to go back to 2007 to find a lower WAR winner. If anyone else wins, they'd be the lowest since 2006 or 2007, depending who wins.

    So I do think there could be some merit to considering a pitcher. This year is very underwhelming for NL WAR and the narrative surrounding most those guys tends to be lacking to an extent too.
    Last edited by crewfan13; 10-04-2021 at 03:36 PM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Cute but the Dodgers haven't technically won the division yet. Was Yoenis Cespedes the MVP when he carried the Mets to the division title in 2015 after being acquired from the A's? I mean he was amazing down the stretch and wasn't close to winning the award. Its going to a guy who has played on the same team all year.

    It is significant when its the lowest FIP since Pedro in 1999. Again, SP just don't get the same love but Burnes deserves the MVP imo.
    That's going from one league to another, Turner did all his damage in the NL. Manny Rameriez almost won the MVP in 08.

    That's just one stat, and it's not even lower than Pedro's.

    For a pitcher to win MVP you usually need a huge amount of innings to go with a great performance.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I mean, cespedes changed leagues, so that alone hurts, as he didn't contribute all of that WAR or those stats in the same league. Likewise, he finished like 9th among NL position players in fWAR even if you give him his AL stats. Turner finished the season as the top fWAR position player in the NL if you include his Nats stats, which were also accured in the NL. So I think the argument between the two is very different.

    I don't think turner wins it, but I'd be cool with it for sure. Because defensive stats in particular are inconsistent, splitting hairs with a 0.1 or 0.2 difference in WAR is pretty pointless, so Turner, Harper or Soto could all reasonably win it. I don't really have an issue with whoever wins, but if the argument for Harper over Soto is his team won more games, then it feels wierd not to include Turner in that discussion as well. Even if you don't want to give turner credit for all 106 dodgers wins, if you take the Nats record when he left and the dodgers record when he arrived, his team's still won something like 92 wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I mean, it's lowest in 25 years and 2nd lowest since WW2. Depending how you feel about FIP as a stat, that's pretty darn impressive. Again, not saying he should win it, but 2nd lowest FIP since the 40s to go along with league leader in ERA, K/9 and K/BB is pretty impressive. Add in the MVP race lacks a true stand out guy and I guess there could be some consideration.

    Take out last year's short season and if Soto wins it, he'd be the lowest rWAR winner in the NL since 2010, where he'd be tied with Votto. You'd have to go back to 2007 to find a lower WAR winner. If anyone else wins, they'd be the lowest since 2006 or 2007, depending who wins.

    So I do think there could be some merit to considering a pitcher. This year is very underwhelming for NL WAR and the narrative surrounding most those guys tends to be lacking to an extent too.
    It's certainly impressive, and the dude hands down deserve the Cy Young, the only other pitcher I would consider is his teammate. He's been amazing.

    He definitely wouldn't be the worst winner of an MVP award. This is a fairly weak year. Frankly, I wouldn't have a problem with any of Soto, Harper, Turner winning it or it going to Corbin Burnes.


    I think overall in both these posts you make very good points.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    That's going from one league to another, Turner did all his damage in the NL. Manny Rameriez almost won the MVP in 08.

    That's just one stat, and it's not even lower than Pedro's.

    For a pitcher to win MVP you usually need a huge amount of innings to go with a great performance.
    Yes but the likelihood of that happening when you play for a team that has the best team WAR in baseball and is already stacked before you got there is small. Has any player won MVP changing teams in season, irrespective of staying in the same league?

    It's not just one stat though. He leads the league in ERA, ERA+, K/9, fWAR, etc. Sure he's going to win the CY Young but he has a legitimate case for MVP. I'm aware he's not going to win it though.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yes but the likelihood of that happening when you play for a team that has the best team WAR in baseball and is already stacked before you got there is small. Has any player won MVP changing teams in season, irrespective of staying in the same league?

    It's not just one stat though. He leads the league in ERA, ERA+, K/9, fWAR, etc. Sure he's going to win the CY Young but he has a legitimate case for MVP. I'm aware he's not going to win it though.
    I believe Cy Young happened with a mid season trade in 1984 with Rick Sutcliff
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  11. #101
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    I'm not saying he only has one good stat, but he only has one truly crazy stat, pitchers kind of need more than that, it helps that this is a pretty weak year for MVP in the NL so no one stands out.

  12. #102
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    Should Brandon Crawford be getting more attention for MVP?

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    Should Brandon Crawford be getting more attention for MVP?
    You never hear his name mentioned. I would say yes, a lot more actually.
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  14. #104
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    He probably should be mentioned, but highly unlikely he wins. By rWAR he's ahead of only harper of the oft mentioned names and by fWAR he's behind all of them. Offensively, he's the worst of the bunch from a pure numbers perspective. Probably the best defender of the group, but that usually carries a bit less weight in these discussions.

    He has the best player on the best team narrative for him, but that's about it. I just don't see a voting criteria where you can justify Crawford unless you want to vote for the best player on the best team. Any other criteria and I think someone else has him beat. Not saying he didnt have a phenomenal year, but just hard to see many scenarios where he gets many first place votes.

  15. #105
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    Agreed.

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