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  1. #61
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    I meam he's not a liability. 4 ERA and has 28 starts. If he plays like that next ywar, its fine assuming the rotation still performs but then you are asking for Ray/Matz to be brought back and performn the same as this year.

    It wpuld be nice to say use that $20 mil AAV on the pitchers tgis draft though.

    He cpuld easily bounce back too. My concerns about injury have minimized buy I wonder if that came at the expense of him just being more fatigued jn the 2nd half (5 ERA in 2nd Half) since hes not used to playing so many games.
    Last edited by Raps18-19 Champ; 09-17-2021 at 01:00 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    I meam he's not a liability. 4 ERA and has 28 starts. If he plays like that next ywar, its fine assuming the rotation still performs but then you are asking for Ray/Matz to be brought back and performn the same as this year.

    It wpuld be nice to say use that $20 mil AAV on the pitchers tgis draft though.

    He cpuld easily bounce back too. My concerns about injury have minimized buy I wonder if that came at the expense of him just being more fatigued jn the 2nd half (5 ERA in 2nd Half) since hes not used to playing so many games.
    Yeah i dont think i ever called him a liability on the mound. its his salary that is the liability. I have a tough time seeing him getting better, and more likely he gets worse. that 20 mil would make a huge difference this offseason (more difference than a 4/5era pitcher). I mean people wanted Dickey gone when he posted similar numbers at half the salary. Ryu might not be in our playoff rotation.

    The signing didnt really make sense to me when it was made, and now we are all seeing why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    Honestly, you should be an MLB scout or GM with your eyes

  3. #63
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    Just over a month ago, Ryu had a 3.22 ERA entering August. It has been a really brutal stretch for him. I do wonder if there is something underlying going on. With his age and IP, fatigue is a logical possibility.

  4. #64
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    I think they skipped 3 of his starts in his last season with the Dodgers. Maybe we cpulda done that here to preserve him?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Yeah i dont think i ever called him a liability on the mound. its his salary that is the liability. I have a tough time seeing him getting better, and more likely he gets worse. that 20 mil would make a huge difference this offseason (more difference than a 4/5era pitcher). I mean people wanted Dickey gone when he posted similar numbers at half the salary. Ryu might not be in our playoff rotation.

    The signing didnt really make sense to me when it was made, and now we are all seeing why.
    Well I think we should get to the playoffs first before deciding on the rotation but it is an interesting question.

    I did have my doubts about signing him given heay decline in the latter stages. But if hes 4.00 ERA and is healtgy then maybe ot works out.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    Well I think we should get to the playoffs first before deciding on the rotation but it is an interesting question.

    I did have my doubts about signing him given heay decline in the latter stages. But if hes 4.00 ERA and is healtgy then maybe ot works out.
    Yeah I would totally take a reliable 4era guy in my 5 hole. It’s just his damn contract.

  7. #67
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    Matz 2 earned or less in 8 of his last 9.

    I want Ray back, but if they were to let him cash in somewhere else, I’d like to bring back Matz. Give him a Happ deal? 3-year 45?

    Then if Syndergaard declines his qualifying offer, give him a big one year show me contract?
    Last edited by statquo; 09-19-2021 at 09:58 PM.

  8. #68
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    I really don't see a scenario where the Jays don't try to bring back Semien, Ray AND Matz. All 3 have been spectacular additions to this roster. They need to keep adding more to this teams core, not just let guys come in and earn big paychecks somewhere else. If your Matz, how could you want to pitch somewhere else with the run support you are getting with this team? If you are Ray, how could you want to stop working with our staff that has him pitching better than he ever has in his life? I know Semien likely wants to play SS somewhere, but if he keeps setting (personal and posiitonal) records while getting his bag from the Jays, I don't know why he would want to leave this lineup either. If you are winning, you are having fun with your teammates and you are getting paid top dollar...what else could you want as a ball player?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I really don't see a scenario where the Jays don't try to bring back Semien, Ray AND Matz. All 3 have been spectacular additions to this roster. They need to keep adding more to this teams core, not just let guys come in and earn big paychecks somewhere else. If your Matz, how could you want to pitch somewhere else with the run support you are getting with this team? If you are Ray, how could you want to stop working with our staff that has him pitching better than he ever has in his life? I know Semien likely wants to play SS somewhere, but if he keeps setting (personal and posiitonal) records while getting his bag from the Jays, I don't know why he would want to leave this lineup either. If you are winning, you are having fun with your teammates and you are getting paid top dollar...what else could you want as a ball player?
    I'd like to see all three retained, although they all come with a level of risk. I really want the Jays to be active on the trade market, as there should be some good stuff available and the Jays have lots of assets.

  10. #70
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    I could see them doing something like letting Semien walk, Biggio taking back 2nd, and trading for Jose Ramirez for 3B.

    And then like I said earlier, letting Ray walk, resigning Matz and signing a bounce back candidate.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I could see them doing something like letting Semien walk, Biggio taking back 2nd, and trading for Jose Ramirez for 3B.

    And then like I said earlier, letting Ray walk, resigning Matz and signing a bounce back candidate.
    Wouldn’t that kinda be a disaster of an offseason though? I mean I like that infield but put pitching would take a big hit. Maybe if they added a couple top end relievers we could be hopeful.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Wouldn’t that kinda be a disaster of an offseason though? I mean I like that infield but put pitching would take a big hit. Maybe if they added a couple top end relievers we could be hopeful.
    I wouldn't really say its a disaster at all. Losing Semien and Ray would suck, and I agree with everyone who have said they should resign both, if not one of them, but left handed bats is a big issues with this team, and we have a hole at 3rd. Also there's the long term budget questions, especially with Vlad, Bo, Teoscar, Berrios etc. all coming up for real contracts soon.

    Ramirez is a switch hitter, plays 3B, he has two team options for 2022 and 2023 at $11m and $13m, and his production this year is almost identical to Semien. He basically is the same hitter as Semien after looking at both of their numbers. It would give more balance in the lineup, fill 3B and be twice as cheap as bringing back Semien while getting the same numbers. It also fixes a gap in our infield defense as you're not trotting out Biggio to play defense at 3B, or Valera who can't hit.

    If you let Ray walk and resign Matz, then you are looking at Berrios, Manoah, Ryu, Matz, blank. Still a solid rotation. I don't know if you can expect to replace or replicate Ray's season with anyone again, including himself, but finding a middle rotation guy or a bounceback guy like Syndergaard may be wiser long term for the budget, and not be as big of a stepback as we think. Especially if you re-invest some of those dollars into the bullpen which has hurt us the most this year.

    I don't think it's the worst idea. I think the optics would hurt more than anything.
    Last edited by statquo; 09-20-2021 at 02:56 PM.


    The Lost Boys of PSD

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    I wouldn't really say its a disaster at all. Losing Semien and Ray would suck, and I agree with everyone who have said they should resign both, if not one of them, but left handed bats is a big issues with this team, and we have a hole at 3rd. Also there's the long term budget questions, especially with Vlad, Bo, Teoscar, Berrios etc. all coming up for real contracts soon.

    Ramirez is a switch hitter, plays 3B, he has two team options for 2022 and 2023 at $11m and $13m, and his production this year is almost identical to Semien. He basically is the same hitter as Semien after looking at both of their numbers. It would give more balance in the lineup, fill 3B and be twice as cheap as bringing back Semien while getting the same numbers. It also fixes a gap in our infield defense as you're not trotting out Biggio to play defense at 3B, or Valera who can't hit.

    If you let Ray walk and resign Matz, then you are looking at Berrios, Manoah, Ryu, Matz, blank. Still a solid rotation. I don't know if you can expect to replace or replicate Ray's season with anyone again, including himself, but finding a middle rotation guy or a bounceback guy like Syndergaard may be wiser long term for the budget, and not be as big of a stepback as we think. Especially if you re-invest some of those dollars into the bullpen which has hurt us the most this year.

    I don't think it's the worst idea. I think the optics would hurt more than anything.
    I don't think you can assume Ray will fall off a cliff and not pitch like a TORP again even if it isn't a Cy Young caliber season again next year. He is only 29 and in the middle of his prime.

    1- Ray
    2- Semian
    3- Matz

    Matz is the guy you let walk if the price gets too high, but he is 6-3 with an ERA of 2.80 in the second half over 12 starts. If not for that weird start in Baltimore when he had like 3 half hour breaks his ERA would be around 2.30. So he has pitched like an ace since he didn't half to make half his starts in a minor league ballpark. He was terrible in Buffalo and Dunedin, but he has been great in Toronto so far. This will be his 3rd (full) season in a row making around 30 starts, so he is reliable too. It would take a rather large deal to get me to walk away from him. He's the one guy that didn't already sign here in FA once though, so it will be interesting to see just how much he wants to come back and ride with this squad during his prime.

    They get that done and they have:

    Ray
    Berrios
    Ryu
    Manoah
    Matz


    Romano
    Pearson
    Mayza
    Cimber
    Richards
    Borucki
    Merryweather


    Kirk/Jansen
    Vlad
    Semien
    Bo
    3B
    LGJ
    Springer
    Teo
    Grichuk
    Biggio

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I don't think you can assume Ray will fall off a cliff and not pitch like a TORP again even if it isn't a Cy Young caliber season again next year. He is only 29 and in the middle of his prime.

    1- Ray
    2- Semian
    3- Matz

    Matz is the guy you let walk if the price gets too high, but he is 6-3 with an ERA of 2.80 in the second half over 12 starts. If not for that weird start in Baltimore when he had like 3 half hour breaks his ERA would be around 2.30. So he has pitched like an ace since he didn't half to make half his starts in a minor league ballpark. He was terrible in Buffalo and Dunedin, but he has been great in Toronto so far. This will be his 3rd (full) season in a row making around 30 starts, so he is reliable too. It would take a rather large deal to get me to walk away from him. He's the one guy that didn't already sign here in FA once though, so it will be interesting to see just how much he wants to come back and ride with this squad during his prime.

    They get that done and they have:

    Ray
    Berrios
    Ryu
    Manoah
    Matz


    Romano
    Pearson
    Mayza
    Cimber
    Richards
    Borucki
    Merryweather


    Kirk/Jansen
    Vlad
    Semien
    Bo
    3B
    LGJ
    Springer
    Teo
    Grichuk
    Biggio
    As with every offseason, I need to know the payroll parameters for the off-season for our discussion. I propose 60m to spend. Go!

    With that I’d go ray , semien, and matz.

    Add in healthier biggio springer and merryweather. And Pearson

    If extra money there to extend berrios bo and vlad I do that as well but prob not
    Beeston: "we should be able to support a $140-$150 million payroll and that's the direction that we're headed."
    1.27.11

  15. #75
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    I like the idea of signing all 3 and then still trading biggio+specs for Ramirez.

    We’ll eventually have to unload salary but I hope this offseason isn’t it.

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