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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    To discredit Tom Brady at this point and not recognize that he’s the goat is just stupid. I hated Brady for years but I recognize greatness when I see it.
    Facts or researched opinions on a player is not hate or an attempt to discredit. Maybe the reality is something apart from whatever opinions your favorite talk radio host claims it to be. I'm certainly open to counterarguments, I've just never heard any good reasons why Tom Brady is the NFL's GOAT. I agree he has a strong argument for GOAT QB, but I question anyone's knowledge of football history that claims Brady is the GOAT in the NFL. I understand alot of folks are prisoner-of-the-moment.

    My post in this thread #61 does the job explaining why Tom Brady's teams reach super bowls so consistently. Brady just happens to be the QB on some very great teams. Brady's greatest quality is without question his durability, but that's largely due to the fact unlike most QB's in NFL history, he's able to play in an era where pocket passer QB's receive extraordinary protection from the league.

    Now I keep imploring people that claim Brady as the GOAT, tell me what makes him the NFL GOAT? I can show you throws and play executions that Mahomes and Rodgers completed that Brady could dream of making. Please explain what Brady does that they can't do?

    What Rodgers and Mahomes to this point have not had, that Brady has had in abundance, is a great defense. Please go through NFL history, and see for yourself how elite level defense has as high a correlation as anything to Championships, even higher than offensive line performance which I would assume to be the second greatest factor leading to deep playoff runs.

    The 60s Packers - elite defenses
    70s Steelers - elite defenses
    80s 49ers - elite defenses
    00-10s Patriots - elite defenses

    Futhermore, when you look through Brady's career, although his defenses' and special teams have been consistently elite: with the exception of a few postseasons, the AFC East has helped Brady clinch first round bye's and homefield advantage over a decade in the postseason-- this is why Tom Brady teams went to ten super bowls despite the fact that 50% of his playoff games were mediocre.

    Brady is described by some media types as some kind of playoff god. If you just go through the game logs or game film on youtube there are of course clutch drives where he doesn't convert: 2015 AFC Championships versus Broncos, both final Patriot drives versus the Giants in the Super Bowl. The Eagles/Patriots Super Bowl LII, Brady broke records for single game stats, but was terrible in the clutch. He had two drives to win or tie, he lost a fumble and later came up short.

    Gostkowski/Viniteri were clutch kickers that should be credited for many of these so called game winning drives. So when we put Brady on a level with Michael Jordan, a player who made multiple shots, including the shot down the stretch to put away the Cavaliers--the better team at the time. Jordan, the player that stole the ball and shot the series winner to put away the Jazz in 1997-98 season. Whenever that's done by any sports enthusiast, Tom Brady is "grossly" overrated.

    Brady, unlike Jordan, (or QB's: Montana and Starr), actually plays worse in the postseason. There are actually people claiming that Brady is the GOAT of all sports. How? It's actually not Brady I have a problem with, it's this media push to bolster Brady into a sphere where he clearly does not belong. Brady actually has legit cheating scandals that served as performance enhancers on top of the fact that the raw information we have on Brady clearly shows that he hasn't separated himself from the next greatest player at his position as much as Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, and Jim Brown have.

    Jerry Rice has four more 1st team All Pros than the next closest WR since 1950. Jim Brown in less than a decade has two more All Pro's than the next closest RB. Lawrence Taylor has eight All Pros, as an outside linebacker -- good luck finding the next closest.

    Brady has three All Pros in two decades. How is that GOAT?

    It's madness. I cannot seem to find a rebuttal.

  2. #77
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    So, for the record, Aikman, Favre, Steve Young, Esiason, Theismann etc are all wrong about Brady being the best QB ever. Lionel understands the sport much more thoroughly than those guys.
    Gotta be honest; I'm tempted to side with the Hall of Fame QB's on this subject.

    BTW, Here's the rankings of Brady's defenses (DVOA) during his Super Bowl seasons;
    2001 - 13th
    '03 - 2nd
    '04 - 7th
    '07 - 11th
    2011 - 30th
    '14 - 12th
    '16 - 16th
    '17 - 31st
    '18 - 16th
    2020 - 5th

    His final 5 SB appearances in New England his defenses were garbage. He threw for 505 yds, 3 TD's and 0 INTs against the Eagles in '17 and lost due to Belichick's **** D giving up 41 points. It's a myth to say Brady's benefited by having a defense every season. Some seasons, others not at all.
    Brady's the only QB in history to take a defense ranked 28th or lower to the SB. And he's done it twice.

  3. #78
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    Lionel,

    Why would expect anyone to answer your questions when you ignore their answers. I have personally in this thread alone have given you several arguments for why Brady is GOAT. You can disagree with those reasons or think they are insufficient, but you cannot say you can’t seem to find a rebuttal. You’ve been given several.

    That you ignore them demonstrates your intent is to not have a good faith dialogue or that you are open to counter arguments.

    It’s obvious you’re going to ignore anything anyone says that is contradictory to your opinion.

  4. #79
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    Not to mention, if we’re talking about circumstances responsible for a player’s success, how can we argue Jerry Rice? He played with two Hall of Fame QBs for a total of 15 of his 21 seasons. Here are how many Pro-Bowls, All-Pros, and MVPs his QBs won during his career:

    14 Pro-Bowls
    7 All-Pros
    5 MVPs

    Has there ever been a WR who had that many season where their QB won that many MVPs, or been to that many All-Pros?

  5. #80
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    Is Tom Brady overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Facts or researched opinions on a player is not hate or an attempt to discredit. Maybe the reality is something apart from whatever opinions your favorite talk radio host claims it to be. I'm certainly open to counterarguments, I've just never heard any good reasons why Tom Brady is the NFL's GOAT. I agree he has a strong argument for GOAT QB, but I question anyone's knowledge of football history that claims Brady is the GOAT in the NFL. I understand alot of folks are prisoner-of-the-moment.

    My post in this thread #61 does the job explaining why Tom Brady's teams reach super bowls so consistently. Brady just happens to be the QB on some very great teams. Brady's greatest quality is without question his durability, but that's largely due to the fact unlike most QB's in NFL history, he's able to play in an era where pocket passer QB's receive extraordinary protection from the league.

    Now I keep imploring people that claim Brady as the GOAT, tell me what makes him the NFL GOAT? I can show you throws and play executions that Mahomes and Rodgers completed that Brady could dream of making. Please explain what Brady does that they can't do?

    What Rodgers and Mahomes to this point have not had, that Brady has had in abundance, is a great defense. Please go through NFL history, and see for yourself how elite level defense has as high a correlation as anything to Championships, even higher than offensive line performance which I would assume to be the second greatest factor leading to deep playoff runs.

    The 60s Packers - elite defenses
    70s Steelers - elite defenses
    80s 49ers - elite defenses
    00-10s Patriots - elite defenses

    Futhermore, when you look through Brady's career, although his defenses' and special teams have been consistently elite: with the exception of a few postseasons, the AFC East has helped Brady clinch first round bye's and homefield advantage over a decade in the postseason-- this is why Tom Brady teams went to ten super bowls despite the fact that 50% of his playoff games were mediocre.

    Brady is described by some media types as some kind of playoff god. If you just go through the game logs or game film on youtube there are of course clutch drives where he doesn't convert: 2015 AFC Championships versus Broncos, both final Patriot drives versus the Giants in the Super Bowl. The Eagles/Patriots Super Bowl LII, Brady broke records for single game stats, but was terrible in the clutch. He had two drives to win or tie, he lost a fumble and later came up short.

    Gostkowski/Viniteri were clutch kickers that should be credited for many of these so called game winning drives. So when we put Brady on a level with Michael Jordan, a player who made multiple shots, including the shot down the stretch to put away the Cavaliers--the better team at the time. Jordan, the player that stole the ball and shot the series winner to put away the Jazz in 1997-98 season. Whenever that's done by any sports enthusiast, Tom Brady is "grossly" overrated.

    Brady, unlike Jordan, (or QB's: Montana and Starr), actually plays worse in the postseason. There are actually people claiming that Brady is the GOAT of all sports. How? It's actually not Brady I have a problem with, it's this media push to bolster Brady into a sphere where he clearly does not belong. Brady actually has legit cheating scandals that served as performance enhancers on top of the fact that the raw information we have on Brady clearly shows that he hasn't separated himself from the next greatest player at his position as much as Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, and Jim Brown have.

    Jerry Rice has four more 1st team All Pros than the next closest WR since 1950. Jim Brown in less than a decade has two more All Pro's than the next closest RB. Lawrence Taylor has eight All Pros, as an outside linebacker -- good luck finding the next closest.

    Brady has three All Pros in two decades. How is that GOAT?

    It's madness. I cannot seem to find a rebuttal.
    10 SB appearances with 7 wins
    3x 1st team All Pro, 2x 2nd team All Pro.
    3x League MVP
    2x OPOY
    Member of All Decade Team for two separate decades.
    Most Career Wins in NFL History
    Most Career TD’s passing in NFL History.

    There’s no question, he’s the greatest QB of all time it’s not even close. Even if your argument is that it’s a team game, there is 1 common denominator between all 10 of those SB teams. Plus he’s done with two organizations.
    Last edited by Mr.B; 09-20-2021 at 07:12 PM.

  6. #81
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    Saw this ridiculous tweet this morning;
    Yesterday Brady won his 10th consecutive game. It's the 9th time in his career he's won 10 consecutive games.
    The next closest are two franchises that've won 10 consecutive games four different times in their history.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc33 View Post
    Saw this ridiculous tweet this morning;
    Yesterday Brady won his 10th consecutive game. It's the 9th time in his career he's won 10 consecutive games.
    The next closest are two franchises that've won 10 consecutive games four different times in their history.
    I mean, that's one way to make Lionel's point for him. QBs have a big influence on the game, but not 10 consecutive wins kind of influence.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc33 View Post
    So, for the record, Aikman, Favre, Steve Young, Esiason, Theismann etc are all wrong about Brady being the best QB ever. Lionel understands the sport much more thoroughly than those guys.
    Gotta be honest; I'm tempted to side with the Hall of Fame QB's on this subject.

    BTW, Here's the rankings of Brady's defenses (DVOA) during his Super Bowl seasons;
    2001 - 13th
    '03 - 2nd
    '04 - 7th
    '07 - 11th
    2011 - 30th
    '14 - 12th
    '16 - 16th
    '17 - 31st
    '18 - 16th
    2020 - 5th

    His final 5 SB appearances in New England his defenses were garbage. He threw for 505 yds, 3 TD's and 0 INTs against the Eagles in '17 and lost due to Belichick's **** D giving up 41 points. It's a myth to say Brady's benefited by having a defense every season. Some seasons, others not at all.
    Brady's the only QB in history to take a defense ranked 28th or lower to the SB. And he's done it twice.
    DVOA analyzes each play in a game.
    PFF analyzes each player on each play.

    PFF ranks the 2018 NE 2nd in overall defense. The Patriots had five above average defensive backs in coverage for over 500 snaps that season, including one elite defensive back in Gilmore--best in the NFL that season.

    The AFC EAST according to PF-R SRS was one of the worse divisions in modern times. I'm assuming that's why the DVOA rankings destroy them.

    In the first 2018 vs the Jets the Patriots defense gave up 42 yards per drive, the NFL average that season was 32 yards per drive, but in that game the Patriots only gave up 13 points--ten points below the NFL average.

    But I'm pretty sure the DVOA figure was unimpressive because of the 42 years per drive versus the Jets.

    Where the defense obviously justified itself, is its utter destruction of the leagues best overall offense--LA Rams--in the Super Bowl. It was arguably the Rams worst offensive output of the season. The Pats defense struggled against Mahomes in the 2nd Half @ Arrowhead, but handed the Chargers one of their worse offensive outputs of the season holding Rivers to below 50% comp. on 51 attempts and their runnings backs to sub 2 yards per carry.

    I lean towards PFF, that this was yet another elite defensive unit in New England.

    Brady has had a top 5 or elite defense in six of his last seven seasons, including last season with the Bucs.

    In fact, the only single season Brady didn't have an elite defense and won a super bowl was 2001. How can anyone seriously give me Tom Brady as the key reason the Patriots won in '01? In three games (well, 3 1/2 because Bledsoe closed the CC), Brady threw for 1 TD, rushed for 1 TD, and fumbled. The Patriots defense didn't allow a team to score over 20 ppg in the playoffs--they held an all-time offense to two touchdowns below their season average in the super bowl.

    Tom Brady has had four seasons where he had an elite defense and loss or did not appear in the super bowl (2006, 2007, 2015, 2019).

    Patrick Mahomes has NEVER had an elite defense, he's never had an average defense. He's appeared in two Super Bowls in three years.

    Aaron Rodgers has NEVER had an elite defense, he's had a top-10 defense four times (2009, 2010, 2012, 2020), in the 2010 season he won a super bowl. Remember Brady has had an elite or very good defense at least 13 of his 19 seasons (68%) of his career.

    Peyton Manning has had an elite defense twice in 17 seasons (2012, 2015), he reached the super bowl and won in 2015. Manning had a top-10 defense five times in 17 seasons (2005, 2007, 2012, 2014, 2015) or for 29% of the seasons in his career.

    Brady has reached the super bowl "twice" post-spygate era without an elite defense--he lost both. He went to the super bowl only once in his 19 full seasons with a defense that wasn't very good. Mahomes has already been twice with a defense that wasn't very good (2019, 2020). Manning has been twice with defenses that weren't very good (2006, 2009). Rodgers hasn't been to a super bowl without a top defense, for what it's worth he's been to five Conference Championships, four without a very good defense.

    It's important to note that high octane offenses without a very good defense is not a historic recipe to win Super Bowls--it doesn't matter how well the offense performs. The 1998 Vikings, 1980s Chargers, 1984 Dolphins were all better offenses than Mahomes, Manning, Rodgers have had--none of these three teams won in the super bowl.

    The reason you can't find an attribute or quality that places Brady over Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning (except maybe durability) is because there is none, the key to Brady's success is in the team numbers. He's had more opportunities with better defenses than any other starting QB in history. No QB has enjoyed over a decade great defense and great special teams all the while playing in one of the weakest divisions in football. It's the only reason Brady has appeared in more Super Bowls than his contemporaries. Why this is not obvious is such an enigma to me. Brady is even a scandalous QB. What other all-time QB has been associated cheating? Except maybe Peyton Manning with the HGH claim.
    Last edited by Lionel20; 09-21-2021 at 01:09 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Lionel,

    Why would expect anyone to answer your questions when you ignore their answers. I have personally in this thread alone have given you several arguments for why Brady is GOAT. You can disagree with those reasons or think they are insufficient, but you cannot say you can’t seem to find a rebuttal. You’ve been given several.

    That you ignore them demonstrates your intent is to not have a good faith dialogue or that you are open to counter arguments.

    It’s obvious you’re going to ignore anything anyone says that is contradictory to your opinion.
    I really thought I responded to your points.

    My post#83 is my solidified argument, I'm not sure if anyone wants to counter it? I'm listening.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I really thought I responded to your points.

    My post#83 is my solidified argument, I'm not sure if anyone wants to counter it? I'm listening.
    You did respond to my points. You then proceeded to say no one had made any argument beyond rings for why Brady is the GOAT.

    So you responded and then proceeded to act like they didn't happen. You can't claim no one has presented you with arguments for why Brady is the GOAT, plenty of people (myself included) have.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    10 SB appearances with 7 wins
    3x 1st team All Pro, 2x 2nd team All Pro.
    3x League MVP
    2x OPOY
    Member of All Decade Team for two separate decades.
    Most Career Wins in NFL History
    Most Career TD’s passing in NFL History.

    There’s no question, he’s the greatest QB of all time it’s not even close. Even if your argument is that it’s a team game, there is 1 common denominator between all 10 of those SB teams. Plus he’s done with two organizations.
    You would agree being a 3x All Pro, 3x MVP, and 2x OPOY doesn't by itself qualify him for GOAT QB, let alone NFL GOAT?

    Most wins (see my post#83 regarding Brady's teams compared to other QB's in history)

    The volume stats argument is a decent argument. Although Favre broke Marino who broke Fran Tarkenton's the all-time TD record... none of them were ever widely considered GOAT.

    What about NFL GOAT? You like volume stats, right?

    Jerry Rice broke all the significant WR records by 1992, he wasn't even HALF WAY through his career. If you added in his postseason numbers he dwarfs the next closest WR by 7,000 yards over 50... yes, 50 TD's. The next closes WR, Moss/Owens played in much more pass friendly eras. Yes, Rice played in the WCO w/ Joe Montana: Dwight Clark was no Jerry Rice, not even close. Rice's best years were with Steve Young, go lookup what Steve Young was before he arrived in San Francisco with Rice.

    Please tell me Brady is better in his position than Rice, Taylor, or Jim Brown. How?

    If Brady is the GOAT QB, it is not by much over Manning/Montana/Marino... Mahomes/Rodgers/Wilson need a precipitous drop off over the next ten years or their right there in the heat of the GOAT discussion.

    Who is even realistically in the conversation with Jerry Rice and Lawrence Taylor? The value between Rice/Taylor and the next best to play their position in my opinion is greater than any QB's relative value in the history of the league.

    Brady does not have anywhere close the separation that Rice and Taylor do at their respective positions, and Brown on a season by season basis is on another tier from any other RB to play.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You did respond to my points. You then proceeded to say no one had made any argument beyond rings for why Brady is the GOAT.

    So you responded and then proceeded to act like they didn't happen. You can't claim no one has presented you with arguments for why Brady is the GOAT, plenty of people (myself included) have.
    Fair.

    I'm just really confused as to why so many people are elevating Brady to this level? This didn't happen to Russell and he has eleven championships. He went to the Finals and won basically every year.

    Who was saying Russell is better than Willie Mays or Jim Brown?

    What is this madness I keep hearing about Brady being the best to ever play sports, or the GOAT of GOAT, greatest athlete of all-time?

    Is this some joke? He's not even the greatest NFL player all-time. He "may" be slightly better than Manning and Montana career wise.

    Plus, "time" is the only thing in Rodgers and Mahomes way from being the GOAT QB. They don't have to win seven Super Bowls unless they have all the great defenses that Brady had. Who said Jordan had to win eleven. All thorough basketball fans know that Russell had a greater team than Jordan. It was pre-Free Agency with Russell. The Celtics had HOF coming off the bench.

    Defense anchors all the dynasties in NFL History, with the exception of the 90s Cowboys--who did have a top 10 defense one of the three super bowl years. The Cowboys however had the greatest offensive line God ever created though.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    Fair.

    I'm just really confused as to why so many people are elevating Brady to this level? This didn't happen to Russell and he has eleven championships. He went to the Finals and won basically every year.

    Who was saying Russell is better than Willie Mays or Jim Brown?

    What is this madness I keep hearing about Brady being the best to ever play sports, or the GOAT of GOAT, greatest athlete of all-time?

    Is this some joke? He's not even the greatest NFL player all-time. He "may" be slightly better than Manning and Montana career wise.

    Plus, "time" is the only thing in Rodgers and Mahomes way from being the GOAT QB. They don't have to win seven Super Bowls unless they have all the great defenses that Brady had. Who said Jordan had to win eleven. All thorough basketball fans know that Russell had a greater team than Jordan. It was pre-Free Agency with Russell. The Celtics had HOF coming off the bench.

    Defense anchors all the dynasties in NFL History, with the exception of the 90s Cowboys--who did have a top 10 defense one of the three super bowl years. The Cowboys however had the greatest offensive line God ever created though.
    You lost me at “I’m confused”.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDawk4Prez View Post
    You lost me at “I’m confused”.
    Tom Brady has cracked the code, but most of variables in the blueprint are not performance related for a QB

    Formula for appearing in 10 Super Bowls

    1. Durability. Must be good enough to play at least two decades.

    *Most play post “Bloody Sunday” 2010 in an era that is the pinnacle of QB overprotection. Avoid hits: take phantom sacks, use RBs and Slot WRs on quick timing routes

    2. Play with an elite and/or very good defense and special teams for 60% of your career. Surprisingly, in a team sport like football w/ so many moving parts and dependent positions, because you’re the QB, you’ll get all the credit for defensive and special team performances.

    3. Play in one of weakest divisions in the NFL for over have your career. You’re not going to get playoff byes and homefield advantage by playing in dominant divisions.

    4. Benefit from cheating scandals. We know the Patriots won their first three Super Bowls by a total of 9 points during the spygate era 2000-2006. The Kraft-Goodell relationship protecting the spygate evidence from being public consumption — Goodell actually burned the tapes on-site

    5. Don’t take the money. Brady began taking less money around his 2010 contract. He was mark able enough to be the highest paid QB due largely to points 1-4 on this list. Business insider estimates that Brady collected about $7 million less per year to help the Patriots sign talent around him.

    Apparently, this is how you become the GOAT in the NFL.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    I'm certainly open to counterarguments, I've just never heard any good reasons why Tom Brady is the NFL's GOAT. I understand alot of folks are prisoner-of-the-moment.

    Now I keep imploring people that claim Brady as the GOAT, tell me what makes him the NFL GOAT?

    Gostkowski/Viniteri were clutch kickers that should be credited for many of these so called game winning drives.

    It's madness. I cannot seem to find a rebuttal.
    I guess "prisoner of the moment" if for a 20+ year moment

    To quickly address the kicker lunacy first:

    -Gostkowski missed an XP in the 2015 AFCCG that probably cost them a trip to the Super Bowl. That could have been another one for TB if not for his kicker.

    -Vinatieri is often credited for winning SB38. He was 1/3 on FGs in that game, and had a kickoff out of bounds that led to CAR points. If he had not been horrible in that SB, they wouldnt have even needed him to attempt the game winning FG in that one.

    As for TB himself and if hes done anything to be considered the GOAT, hes the all time leader in:

    Reg Season Starts
    Reg Season Wins
    Reg Season Win%
    Playoff Appearances
    Playoff Wins
    Super Bowl Wins
    Conference Championships
    Super Bowl MVPs
    Playoff Passing Yards
    Playoff TDs
    Regular Season TDs
    Regular Season Passing Yards (in 2 weeks)

    He had the single season records (later broken) for TD passes in a season, and later for yards in a season.
    He set the record for TD/INT ratio in a season, twice.

    Hes won with 2 Head Coaches
    Hes won in 2 conferences
    Hes made Super Bowls with 4 different OCs
    Hes thrown TD passes to more receivers than anyone else in NFL history

    Just give the guy his due

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