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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    That Brady guy is pretty good, but he's certainly no Derek Carr.
    One day he might be


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    Lol that’s not saying much
    True,

    Rewind a few years ago on this site even, lots of people were saying Wentz will have a better career than Prescott. Well, Prescott is arguably a top 5 QB in this league, Wentz is below average.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManningToTyree View Post
    He’s been the GOAT for years now hard to overrate the best ever to do it.


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    First off, I don't buy the argument that the GOAT has to be a QB. Brady quite possibly is the GOAT QB, but as I argued in the OP Brady doesn't bring the value over the alternative position player that Rice, Taylor, or Brown does.

    Did you know that in Tom Brady's 22 seasons, he's only been without a top 10 defense 6 times (2017, 2013, 2010, 2007, 2005, 2002).
    *PFF grades 2006-2020
    *PF-R expected points 2001-2005

    Brady played with an "elite" defense, which I define as top 5 or better, 9 times in his career including last season. Please name a starting QB that has enjoyed an elite defense for a period that extensive?

    An elite defense can carry you to a championship, see Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

    If you ask most people to explain what makes Brady the GOAT, they'll come up with either the rings argument (which as I explained in the OP is a ridiculous argument in a sport like football with so many moving parts) or some mythical, abstract, unmeasurable attribute like he's the greatest leader of men.

    Brady does not have the quickest release.
    He never came close to dissecting defenses like a Peyton Manning.
    He does not have the strongest or most accurate arm.
    He cannot scramble or evade defenders. He's not a great athlete.

    He has 3 All Pro 1st team awards and 3 MVP awards... neither of these accomplishments are QB records in his 22 seasons.

    He does have five SB MVPs but he's been there a record ten times. Why?

    Here's why--and you really don't have to reach. Brady's played on teams with great defenses over 70% of the seasons in his career. He's never won a super bowl without an elite defense--the only exception is 2001, where PF-Ref ranks the Pats 9th in the regular season defensively, but as the Pats typically do, played better in the postseason and shutdown the 'Greatest Show On Turf' in the SB.

    The other reason is the AFC EAST. According to PF-Ref Simple Rating System, the AFC East has been a weak, below average division over 50% of Brady's career. From 2012-2019, on average, it was the worst division in football. Chances are Brady is going to get to ride a weak division towards a favorable seeding, and this is what happened in 2005, 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. The AFC East spotted a post-spygate Brady at least one relatively easy home playoff game almost every year, in most cases following a 1st Round Bye.

    In short,

    You do not have to be the GOAT to win seven Super Bowls in the NFL.

    Here's the formula,

    Be just good enough to keep your job for 22 years.

    Play in a weak division for at least 11 of those years, with an elite level defense.

    Play with at least two all-time greats on offense (Gronkowski, Moss) for at least 14 of those 22 years.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    First off, I don't buy the argument that the GOAT has to be a QB. Brady quite possibly is the GOAT QB, but as I argued in the OP Brady doesn't bring the value over the alternative position player that Rice, Taylor, or Brown does.

    Did you know that in Tom Brady's 22 seasons, he's only been without a top 10 defense 6 times (2017, 2013, 2010, 2007, 2005, 2002).
    *PFF grades 2006-2020
    *PF-R expected points 2001-2005

    Brady played with an "elite" defense, which I define as top 5 or better, 9 times in his career including last season. Please name a starting QB that has enjoyed an elite defense for a period that extensive?

    An elite defense can carry you to a championship, see Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

    If you ask most people to explain what makes Brady the GOAT, they'll come up with either the rings argument (which as I explained in the OP is a ridiculous argument in a sport like football with so many moving parts) or some mythical, abstract, unmeasurable attribute like he's the greatest leader of men.

    Brady does not have the quickest release.
    He never came close to dissecting defenses like a Peyton Manning.
    He does not have the strongest or most accurate arm.
    He cannot scramble or evade defenders. He's not a great athlete.

    He has 3 All Pro 1st team awards and 3 MVP awards... neither of these accomplishments are QB records in his 22 seasons.

    He does have five SB MVPs but he's been there a record ten times. Why?

    Here's why--and you really don't have to reach. Brady's played on teams with great defenses over 70% of the seasons in his career. He's never won a super bowl without an elite defense--the only exception is 2001, where PF-Ref ranks the Pats 9th in the regular season defensively, but as the Pats typically do, played better in the postseason and shutdown the 'Greatest Show On Turf' in the SB.

    The other reason is the AFC EAST. According to PF-Ref Simple Rating System, the AFC East has been a weak, below average division over 50% of Brady's career. From 2012-2019, on average, it was the worst division in football. Chances are Brady is going to get to ride a weak division towards a favorable seeding, and this is what happened in 2005, 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. The AFC East spotted a post-spygate Brady at least one relatively easy home playoff game almost every year, in most cases following a 1st Round Bye.

    In short,

    You do not have to be the GOAT to win seven Super Bowls in the NFL.

    Here's the formula,

    Be just good enough to keep your job for 22 years.

    Play in a weak division for at least 11 of those years, with an elite level defense.

    Play with at least two all-time greats on offense (Gronkowski, Moss) for at least 14 of those 22 years.
    I'm assuming this is some kind of joke. Going to the Pro-Bowl 14 times, Being an All-Pro 3, and Winning 3 MVPs is not just "being good enough to keep your job." Whether you think he's overrated or not, nobody would claim his play is the "just good enough to keep your job" level. What a preposterous comment.

    He's the GOAT. Great defenses certainly help, but consider,

    Despite all those amazing Defenses he played with he still had 14 Game Winning Drives in the playoffs, including at least one in every single year he won a Championship. So even with those defenses, Brady still needed to come up clutch at the end of a game and win despite being down at the end of a game in literally every superbowl run.

    But that isn't what is most impressive about the accomplishment, the most impressive part is how many more he's had than any of his contemporaries:

    Peyton has had 2 playoff game winning drives, both came in years he won the Superbowl. Drew Brees has had 3, including 2 the year he won the Superbowl. Aaron Rodgers has had 2.

    The 3 other contemporary elite QBs have managed a combined 7 game winning drives in the playoffs during a combined 35 playoffs. Brady has 14 such drives in his 18 playoffs.

    Now also consider that Peyton has 7 playoff losses by less than a TD, out of 13 losses total. Drew Brees has 6 such playoff losses (and another by 8 points, so within a single possession), out of 9 total losses. Aaron Rodgers has 5 such losses, out of 9 total.

    So over half the time (a collective 18/31) the other guys were losing by less than a single score, where a game winning drive may have won the game. Brady had 6 such games (and a 7th where it was 8 points i.e. a single possession). So Brady managed to convert 66% of these close games into victories via game winning drives. Peyton managed to do it 22% of the time, Brees 33% of the time, and Rodgers 28% of the time.


    So the difference in whether they won a Superbowl seems to be just as much their inability to come up clutch and win close games as it does an elite defense.

    That is why Brady is the GOAT.
    Last edited by valade16; 09-16-2021 at 02:43 AM.

  5. #35
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    This whole thing is dumb. Why was it before Brady won four super bowl everyone said Montana was the best cause he had four. But after Brady smashed that it becomes well there’s more then just rings.


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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnightbottle View Post
    This whole thing is dumb. Why was it before Brady won four super bowl everyone said Montana was the best cause he had four. But after Brady smashed that it becomes well there’s more then just rings.
    Weird argument because for the longest time most people thought Peyton Manning was better than Brady.

  7. #37
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    Now Brady is “just good enough”.

    I swear, this site sometimes.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    First off, I don't buy the argument that the GOAT has to be a QB. Brady quite possibly is the GOAT QB, but as I argued in the OP Brady doesn't bring the value over the alternative position player that Rice, Taylor, or Brown does.

    Did you know that in Tom Brady's 22 seasons, he's only been without a top 10 defense 6 times (2017, 2013, 2010, 2007, 2005, 2002).
    *PFF grades 2006-2020
    *PF-R expected points 2001-2005

    Brady played with an "elite" defense, which I define as top 5 or better, 9 times in his career including last season. Please name a starting QB that has enjoyed an elite defense for a period that extensive?

    An elite defense can carry you to a championship, see Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

    If you ask most people to explain what makes Brady the GOAT, they'll come up with either the rings argument (which as I explained in the OP is a ridiculous argument in a sport like football with so many moving parts) or some mythical, abstract, unmeasurable attribute like he's the greatest leader of men.

    Brady does not have the quickest release.
    He never came close to dissecting defenses like a Peyton Manning.
    He does not have the strongest or most accurate arm.
    He cannot scramble or evade defenders. He's not a great athlete.

    He has 3 All Pro 1st team awards and 3 MVP awards... neither of these accomplishments are QB records in his 22 seasons.

    He does have five SB MVPs but he's been there a record ten times. Why?

    Here's why--and you really don't have to reach. Brady's played on teams with great defenses over 70% of the seasons in his career. He's never won a super bowl without an elite defense--the only exception is 2001, where PF-Ref ranks the Pats 9th in the regular season defensively, but as the Pats typically do, played better in the postseason and shutdown the 'Greatest Show On Turf' in the SB.

    The other reason is the AFC EAST. According to PF-Ref Simple Rating System, the AFC East has been a weak, below average division over 50% of Brady's career. From 2012-2019, on average, it was the worst division in football. Chances are Brady is going to get to ride a weak division towards a favorable seeding, and this is what happened in 2005, 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. The AFC East spotted a post-spygate Brady at least one relatively easy home playoff game almost every year, in most cases following a 1st Round Bye.

    In short,

    You do not have to be the GOAT to win seven Super Bowls in the NFL.

    Here's the formula,

    Be just good enough to keep your job for 22 years.

    Play in a weak division for at least 11 of those years, with an elite level defense.

    Play with at least two all-time greats on offense (Gronkowski, Moss) for at least 14 of those 22 years.
    He was just good enough to keep his job for 22 years? Sorry can’t take you seriously.


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Weird argument because for the longest time most people thought Peyton Manning was better than Brady.
    I don’t know what planet you live on but that never happened


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm assuming this is some kind of joke. Going to the Pro-Bowl 14 times, Being an All-Pro 3, and Winning 3 MVPs is not just "being good enough to keep your job." Whether you think he's overrated or not, nobody would claim his play is the "just good enough to keep your job" level. What a preposterous comment.

    He's the GOAT. Great defenses certainly help, but consider,

    Despite all those amazing Defenses he played with he still had 14 Game Winning Drives in the playoffs, including at least one in every single year he won a Championship. So even with those defenses, Brady still needed to come up clutch at the end of a game and win despite being down at the end of a game in literally every superbowl run.

    But that isn't what is most impressive about the accomplishment, the most impressive part is how many more he's had than any of his contemporaries:

    Peyton has had 2 playoff game winning drives, both came in years he won the Superbowl. Drew Brees has had 3, including 2 the year he won the Superbowl. Aaron Rodgers has had 2.

    The 3 other contemporary elite QBs have managed a combined 7 game winning drives in the playoffs during a combined 35 playoffs. Brady has 14 such drives in his 18 playoffs.

    Now also consider that Peyton has 7 playoff losses by less than a TD, out of 13 losses total. Drew Brees has 6 such playoff losses (and another by 8 points, so within a single possession), out of 9 total losses. Aaron Rodgers has 5 such losses, out of 9 total.

    So over half the time (a collective 18/31) the other guys were losing by less than a single score, where a game winning drive may have won the game. Brady had 6 such games (and a 7th where it was 8 points i.e. a single possession). So Brady managed to convert 66% of these close games into victories via game winning drives. Peyton managed to do it 22% of the time, Brees 33% of the time, and Rodgers 28% of the time.


    So the difference in whether they won a Superbowl seems to be just as much their inability to come up clutch and win close games as it does an elite defense.

    That is why Brady is the GOAT.
    You completely missed what I was explaining about 'being just good enough to keep your job for 22 years' in an effort to reach ten Super Bowls.

    My point was simply if you play on teams with great-to-elite defenses for over a decade like Brady has, your chances of going to as many Super Bowls as he has is high. In other words, winning seven Super Bowls or even going to ten in the NFL does not make him GOAT. You don't have to be the best QB in the league or the GOAT QB to win seven Super Bowls. I'd argue Brady's first three Super Bowls--which he won by a total of nine points--are tainted due to spy gate, but even if we want to legitimize them, Brady was not the best QB in the league by anyones standards during this period.

    In fact, other teams have had super bowl appearances with below average QB play during Brady's tenure.

    Buccaneers 2002
    Panthers 2003
    Bears 2006
    Steelers 2008
    Broncos 2015
    49ers 2019

    Aaron Rodgers only super bowl appearance came when he had a top ten defense
    All of Ben Roethlisberger's three super bowl appearances came with an "elite"/top 5 defense.

    An "average" QB should go to about six or seven Super Bowls if armed with a great defense for sixteen years like Brady. Much like LeBron James, one of Brady's best qualities is his durability--of course LeBron plays a more physically demanding position. If a QB stays healthy and is able to maintain his job for 16 seasons with a top quality defense, winning six or seven Super Bowls isn't astronomical. The question I have is how many players in NFL history can you name fortunate enough to play with top quality defenses for 16 years? In a weak division for 11 season? And....

    Let's talk about the other aspects of the Patriots' unprecedented run. A good place to start is Brady's 14 Postseason GW drives as you mentioned. Over half of those GW drives were determined by a FG.

    I think on a drive where an offense sets the kicker up 45 yards or more for the FG, the Kicker needs a large share of the credit for that make in any GW drive.

    For instance, Vinatieri should get at least half the credit for the GW drive in Super Bowl XXXVI against the Rams. In clutch situations that's probably about a 60-65% probability in a dome.

    Vinatieri/Gostkowski as a testimony to the immaculate New England special teams have made two 45+ FG helping Brady in his 14 postseason GW drives. The Patriots FG kickers made 87% of their FG attempts throughout Brady's time in New England 2nd highest all-time in a 20-year period. The Ravens w/ primarily Stover and Tucker are first all-time.

    Succop last year was 90% in FG%, including 8/11 from 40+

    The Buccaneers are essentially the same fit as the average 19 seasons with the Patriots. The Bucs have stellar special teams and defense, last year the average starting field position for Brady was 3rd best in the league. The only two differences I see with Bucs as opposed to the Pats:

    1. the Bucs have a much more explosive offense
    2. the NFC South is a more competitive division than post-spygate Brady is used to playing in.

    If you put any fringe top 10 QB in the team and organizational situations Brady has been in for 22 years, that player will have as much or more postseason success as Brady in my opinion.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnightbottle View Post
    This whole thing is dumb. Why was it before Brady won four super bowl everyone said Montana was the best cause he had four. But after Brady smashed that it becomes well there’s more then just rings.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't think many people considered Joe Montana to greatest player of all-time, just the greatest QB all-time. There's still an argument there for Montana. Unlike Brady, Montana actually played his best football in the postseason.

    But if depends on what you want to do with Brady's durability. It's hard to compare, because Brady in his era would never have taken the type of consistent punishment that Montana took in the pocket.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnightbottle View Post
    I don’t know what planet you live on but that never happened
    Absolutely that happened. Before Brady went on to win the last 4 of his SBs, the majority had Peyton Manning over him. Especially in 2013 when P. Man. set the records for most passing yards and TDs in a season.

  13. #43
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    10 SB appearances with 7 wins
    3x First-Team All Pro, 2x Second-Team All Pro

    Definitely not overrated. If anything he’s still underrated.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    10 SB appearances with 7 wins
    3x First-Team All Pro, 2x Second-Team All Pro

    Definitely not overrated. If anything he’s still underrated.
    This guy gets it.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    Eegles4ever: This is some football here. What about the Wentz? This thread by fiddy.

    RBphiladelphia: This couldn't be a Wentz even if you wished for it. Wentz does not exist.

    Mr Not the Eagles: Friends, look for the lack of Wentz where there is now Hertz. Wentz is a horse while Dak is a cow.

    CamBearMan: I am not Cam, Cam is inevitable.

    Mods: Guys, please cut out on all the violence. Due to complaints, the letter A must be at least 6 spaces away from the letter I.

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