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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    You completely missed what I was explaining about 'being just good enough to keep your job for 22 years' in an effort to reach ten Super Bowls.

    My point was simply if you play on teams with great-to-elite defenses for over a decade like Brady has, your chances of going to as many Super Bowls as he has is high. In other words, winning seven Super Bowls or even going to ten in the NFL does not make him GOAT. You don't have to be the best QB in the league or the GOAT QB to win seven Super Bowls. I'd argue Brady's first three Super Bowls--which he won by a total of nine points--are tainted due to spy gate, but even if we want to legitimize them, Brady was not the best QB in the league by anyones standards during this period.

    In fact, other teams have had super bowl appearances with below average QB play during Brady's tenure.

    Buccaneers 2002
    Panthers 2003
    Bears 2006
    Steelers 2008
    Broncos 2015
    49ers 2019

    Aaron Rodgers only super bowl appearance came when he had a top ten defense
    All of Ben Roethlisberger's three super bowl appearances came with an "elite"/top 5 defense.


    An "average" QB should go to about six or seven Super Bowls if armed with a great defense for sixteen years like Brady. Much like LeBron James, one of Brady's best qualities is his durability--of course LeBron plays a more physically demanding position. If a QB stays healthy and is able to maintain his job for 16 seasons with a top quality defense, winning six or seven Super Bowls isn't astronomical. The question I have is how many players in NFL history can you name fortunate enough to play with top quality defenses for 16 years? In a weak division for 11 season? And....

    Let's talk about the other aspects of the Patriots' unprecedented run. A good place to start is Brady's 14 Postseason GW drives as you mentioned. Over half of those GW drives were determined by a FG.

    I think on a drive where an offense sets the kicker up 45 yards or more for the FG, the Kicker needs a large share of the credit for that make in any GW drive.

    For instance, Vinatieri should get at least half the credit for the GW drive in Super Bowl XXXVI against the Rams. In clutch situations that's probably about a 60-65% probability in a dome.

    Vinatieri/Gostkowski as a testimony to the immaculate New England special teams have made two 45+ FG helping Brady in his 14 postseason GW drives. The Patriots FG kickers made 87% of their FG attempts throughout Brady's time in New England 2nd highest all-time in a 20-year period. The Ravens w/ primarily Stover and Tucker are first all-time.

    Succop last year was 90% in FG%, including 8/11 from 40+

    The Buccaneers are essentially the same fit as the average 19 seasons with the Patriots. The Bucs have stellar special teams and defense, last year the average starting field position for Brady was 3rd best in the league. The only two differences I see with Bucs as opposed to the Pats:

    1. the Bucs have a much more explosive offense
    2. the NFC South is a more competitive division than post-spygate Brady is used to playing in.

    If you put any fringe top 10 QB in the team and organizational situations Brady has been in for 22 years, that player will have as much or more postseason success as Brady in my opinion.
    First Bolded: Then why haven't they?

    Second Bolded: That's a little disingenuous because only half those teams actually won the Superbowl and 2/3 of those that did had a Hall of Fame QB under Center. Not to mention the Steelers actually prove my point as despite their amazing defense it still took a game winning drive from Big Ben to win the game...

    Third Bolded: But that doesn't tell us much unless we know how many of those defenses they've had throughout their careers. In order for it to be an apt comparison, please list:

    How many times Rodgers, Peyton, etc. had a Top 5 or Top 10 defense throughout their careers. Because according to you they should be going to the Superbowl at the same frequency as Brady as a % of their elite or very good defenses.

    Because as you say, Brady had an elite defense 9 times and he's made 10 Superbowls. So he basically goes to a Superbowl 100% of the time he has an elite defense. Can Rogers, Peyton, Brees, etc. say the same? Conversely, how many times have they made a Superbowl without one?

    Fourth Bolded: If you want to go that route: 1 of Aaron's 2 playoff game winning drives was a FG, and 2 out of Drew Brees' 3 were a FG. So even discounting game winning drives that result in a FG, Tom Brady still has more game winning TD drives in the playoffs than Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning combined.

    Fifth Bolded: I'm shocked anyone can even try to claim this after Brady literally left the team everyone says was the reason for his success and won a Superbowl somewhere else while the team he left missed the playoffs for the first time since he wasn't the starter (the last time they missed was when he got hurt).


    Outside Brady, which QBs have had the most elite defenses, for how many years, and how many Superbowls did they make and/or win?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Absolutely that happened. Before Brady went on to win the last 4 of his SBs, the majority had Peyton Manning over him. Especially in 2013 when P. Man. set the records for most passing yards and TDs in a season.
    Then went on to get ****ed in the super bowl. I don’t remember many people saying he was better. Maybe better at choking in the playoffs


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnightbottle View Post
    Then went on to get ****ed in the super bowl. I don’t remember many people saying he was better. Maybe better at choking in the playoffs
    Random ESPN article ranking Peyton Manning the best QB of the 00s in 2008:

    https://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs07/...eff&id=3199634

  4. #49
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    Football Outsiders best career Pass DYAR from 2013:

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dv...t-quarterbacks

    Peyton Manning 22,728
    Tom Brady 16,291
    Brett Favre 14,898

    I could go on.

  5. #50
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    There was a legitimate debate over who was the better QB in the 00s. Then Brady put the debate to rest.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Random ESPN article ranking Peyton Manning the best QB of the 00s in 2008:

    https://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs07/...eff&id=3199634
    True, New England Patriots star Tom Brady has two more Super Bowl wins on his résumé. But he certainly doesn't have Manning's numbers. Manning already has thrown for 41,626 yards and 306 touchdowns in his 10-year career. At the pace he's on, he's likely to hold every major career passing record by the time he's done playing.

    Their rationale didn't age very well as Brady has now surpassed Manning's numbers and will almost assuredly retire holding every major career passing record lol

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    There was a legitimate debate over who was the better QB in the 00s. Then Brady put the debate to rest.
    This.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    There was a legitimate debate over who was the better QB in the 00s. Then Brady put the debate to rest.
    Yeah, beginning with the SB 49 win. I already said that. But when Brady still had 3 rings, most people had Manning over him. That's just a historical fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Their rationale didn't age very well as Brady has now surpassed Manning's numbers and will almost assuredly retire holding every major career passing record lol
    Manning still holds the single season passing yards and TDs records.
    Last edited by QB_Eagles; 09-16-2021 at 10:15 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    True,

    Rewind a few years ago on this site even, lots of people were saying Wentz will have a better career than Prescott. Well, Prescott is arguably a top 5 QB in this league, Wentz is below average.
    Prescott's mom was white, FYI.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamba42 View Post
    Prescott's mom was white, FYI.
    Historically these matters were determined by the "one-drop rule" in the USA.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Historically these matters were determined by the "one-drop rule" in the USA.
    I'm not sure what Lionel's attitude on miscegenation is.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by QB_Eagles View Post
    Yeah, beginning with the SB 49 win. I already said that. But when Brady still had 3 rings, most people had Manning over him. That's just a historical fact.

    Manning still holds the single season passing yards and TDs records.
    He does, but the article said career passing records. But even then, Brady is 2nd in single season TDs and 3rd in single season yards.

    What's crazy to me is that Peyton and Brady have both led the league in TDs and Yards the same number of times (4 for TDs and 3 for yards).

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamba42 View Post
    Prescott's mom was white, FYI.
    Hahaha
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    I don't consider Brand New indie. I consider them ****ing awesome and don't belong to a genre.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: Then why haven't they?

    Second Bolded: That's a little disingenuous because only half those teams actually won the Superbowl and 2/3 of those that did had a Hall of Fame QB under Center. Not to mention the Steelers actually prove my point as despite their amazing defense it still took a game winning drive from Big Ben to win the game...

    Third Bolded: But that doesn't tell us much unless we know how many of those defenses they've had throughout their careers. In order for it to be an apt comparison, please list:

    How many times Rodgers, Peyton, etc. had a Top 5 or Top 10 defense throughout their careers. Because according to you they should be going to the Superbowl at the same frequency as Brady as a % of their elite or very good defenses.

    Because as you say, Brady had an elite defense 9 times and he's made 10 Superbowls. So he basically goes to a Superbowl 100% of the time he has an elite defense. Can Rogers, Peyton, Brees, etc. say the same? Conversely, how many times have they made a Superbowl without one?

    Fourth Bolded: If you want to go that route: 1 of Aaron's 2 playoff game winning drives was a FG, and 2 out of Drew Brees' 3 were a FG. So even discounting game winning drives that result in a FG, Tom Brady still has more game winning TD drives in the playoffs than Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning combined.

    Fifth Bolded: I'm shocked anyone can even try to claim this after Brady literally left the team everyone says was the reason for his success and won a Superbowl somewhere else while the team he left missed the playoffs for the first time since he wasn't the starter (the last time they missed was when he got hurt).


    Outside Brady, which QBs have had the most elite defenses, for how many years, and how many Superbowls did they make and/or win?
    1960s: Bart Starr won 5 NFL Championships (2 were labelled Super Bowls vs. the AFL). Starr was 5-0 in NFL Championships. He was not Unitas.

    1970s: Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls. Bradshaw was 4-0 in Super Bowls. He was not Staubach.

    1980s: Montana versus Marino is the most intriguing because Marino appeared in only 1 Super Bowl, and loss to Montana. Montana won four Super Bowls and was 4-0.

    Shula was a great coach, but he was not the offensive mastermind that Coach Walsh was with the WCO. Montana won two Super Bowls before Rice was drafted. But he never won a SB without a top 10 defense in three of the four super bowl years ('81, '88, '89), the 49ers were anchored by 3 "elite" defenses.

    Fast-forward to 2000 - present. QB's are playing much longer due to significant rule changes to protect the passer--one in fact the Brady rule. Brady vs. Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning.

    We could put on film all day and I can breakdown how one group Unitas/Staubach/Marino/Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning are much better quarterbacks than the second group Starr/Bradshaw/Montana/Brady, but the second group shared the commonality of the much more competitive, complete teams.

    Bradshaw never won without an elite defense ('74, '75, '78, '79)

    I mentioned Brady playing an unprecedented sixteen years with a top 10 defense, nine of those years his defense was top 5.

    Montana's '81 defense is probably one of the most underrated of all time.

    What gives Brady even more of a nod over these other QB's in group 2 is that Brady played most of his career with an easier path to the playoffs in a weak division. It's the same reason LeBron makes it to more NBA Finals than just about any other player not on Russell/Cousy's Celtics.

    There's a reason no one can give you can give you "concrete" answers as to why Brady is better than Mahomes or Rodgers... everything's intangibles, immeasurables--Brady's a better leader, more cerebral. Yeah, ok, prove it, I'm listening. All championships prove is that Brady/Montana/Starr/Bradshaw played on better teams. I'll give you the term clutch to describe every other QB in group 2 not named Tom Brady. Brady is the only QB in the group 2 names that I mentioned whose stats actually got significantly worse in the postseason--although AFC East overwhelmingly handed him primarily home games.

    The reason you can't find answers that are not abstract and mysterious when people try to explain why Brady is superior to Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning is because there are no good answers. Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning can do everything Brady can do and thensome, and it's obvious. What Brady/Montana have/had that neither Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning/Marino have/had is consistent elite level defense. In Brady's case special teams and cheating scandals as well.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel20 View Post
    1960s: Bart Starr won 5 NFL Championships (2 were labelled Super Bowls vs. the AFL). Starr was 5-0 in NFL Championships. He was not Unitas.

    1970s: Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls. Bradshaw was 4-0 in Super Bowls. He was not Staubach.

    1980s: Montana versus Marino is the most intriguing because Marino appeared in only 1 Super Bowl, and loss to Montana. Montana won four Super Bowls and was 4-0.

    Shula was a great coach, but he was not the offensive mastermind that Coach Walsh was with the WCO. Montana won two Super Bowls before Rice was drafted. But he never won a SB without a top 10 defense in three of the four super bowl years ('81, '88, '89), the 49ers were anchored by 3 "elite" defenses.

    Fast-forward to 2000 - present. QB's are playing much longer due to significant rule changes to protect the passer--one in fact the Brady rule. Brady vs. Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning.

    We could put on film all day and I can breakdown how one group Unitas/Staubach/Marino/Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning are much better quarterbacks than the second group Starr/Bradshaw/Montana/Brady, but the second group shared the commonality of the much more competitive, complete teams.

    Bradshaw never won without an elite defense ('74, '75, '78, '79)

    I mentioned Brady playing an unprecedented sixteen years with a top 10 defense, nine of those years his defense was top 5.

    Montana's '81 defense is probably one of the most underrated of all time.

    What gives Brady even more of a nod over these other QB's in group 2 is that Brady played most of his career with an easier path to the playoffs in a weak division. It's the same reason LeBron makes it to more NBA Finals than just about any other player not on Russell/Cousy's Celtics.

    There's a reason no one can give you can give you "concrete" answers as to why Brady is better than Mahomes or Rodgers... everything's intangibles, immeasurables--Brady's a better leader, more cerebral. Yeah, ok, prove it, I'm listening. All championships prove is that Brady/Montana/Starr/Bradshaw played on better teams. I'll give you the term clutch to describe every other QB in group 2 not named Tom Brady. Brady is the only QB in the group 2 names that I mentioned whose stats actually got significantly worse in the postseason--although AFC East overwhelmingly handed him primarily home games.

    The reason you can't find answers that are not abstract and mysterious when people try to explain why Brady is superior to Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning is because there are no good answers. Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning can do everything Brady can do and thensome, and it's obvious. What Brady/Montana have/had that neither Mahomes/Rodgers/Manning/Marino have/had is consistent elite level defense. In Brady's case special teams and cheating scandals as well.

    I'm assuming you meant to quote someone else because none of this addressed any of the points I made.

    Bradshaw and Montana won 4 Superbowls in 13 years starting (31%). Brady has won 7 in 19. (37%). So Brady's pace of Superbowls is still better than theirs.


    I know you mentioned Brady playing with unprecedented defensive help. I asked you how often Rodgers, Manning, etc. played with comparable defensive help. Because Brady went to the Superbowl literally 100% of the time he had an elite defense. So I ask again: did they?


    Except I did give you concrete answers as to why Brady is better than Mahomes, or Rodgers, or Peyton, or Brees.

    What are you talking about Brady's stats are the only ones to get significantly worse in the postseason?

    Here are the dropoffs in each stat for Brady and Peyton in the playoffs:

    QB Rating:
    Brady -6.9
    Peyton -9.1

    TD%:
    Brady -0.8%
    Peyton -1.8%

    INT%:
    Brady -0.4%
    Peyton -0.3%

    Comp. %:
    Brady -1.3%
    Peyton -2.1%


    I keep giving you answers that are not abstract and mysterious and you keep ignoring them.


    Now, I'll be awaiting your statistics on how many times Mahoes, Rodgers, Manning, Marino, etc. have had elite defenses so we can see a direct comparison.

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