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  1. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...sts/ar-AAOS5ol

    https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/cov...ination-rates/


    The virus is hitting different areas at different times, but it's not hitting highly vaccinated areas nearly as hard as unvaccinated areas.

    For example, your quote talks about Vermont and how hard they have been hit by comparing it to Vermont's previous highs. Well Vermont literally has the least amount of deaths per capita of any state in the US.

    They have had 323 deaths total from covid. That second deadliest month was under 40 deaths with a high of 4 dying in a single day.

    So it's beyond disingenuous to say covid is "ripping" through Vermont in the same way it ripped through places like Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, Alabama, etc. this summer...
    To be clear, I am not making the case that the vaccines do not work well in preventing death. That's not my argument. I think it's clear that they DO prevent death and do it well (for now).

    I am saying they do not work well is controlling spread and transmission. And thus, no basis for mandates.

    With regards to Vermont, if they are approaching peak hospitalizations and deaths, with the highest vax rate in the country. Despite the 80% vax rate, hospitalizations and deaths are peaking. What does that tell you?

    The articles you shared seem to key in on a time period where delta was ripping through the south. The media had a field day as that was happening, just like they did the year before. Then it started ripping through the North. That is what we are seeing happen now, just like it did last year. Cases have been steadily decreasing in those "red" states for 4-6 weeks straight now. Just as they are steadily increasing in the "blue" states over the same period.

  2. #767
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    To the CDCs credit, they are openly stating that the vaccines can no longer prevent transmission. Walensky said and I quote, “They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death – they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

    https://twitter.com/cnnsitroom/statu...748929?lang=en

    I'm not sure why you guys can't just accept that fact. It's blatantly obvious if you open up your eyes to what is going on on college campuses which are 100% vaccinated silos and/or globally in some of the highest vaxxed countries.

    The vaccines are symptom reducers. Take it if you are in a high risk category. If you are not, there is literally no more reason to take it then there is a flu shot.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 10-05-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    You didn't need any "forewarning" on something that had no effect on your life. It didn't even matter to game by game gamblers since no games were being played yet. It was a "story" because the media has to have something to talk about and that was one they grabbed on to. He wasn't even spreading his position far and wide, his personal anti-vax stance was made a huge public deal and it seems likely that his position has hardened others against getting vaccinated, while had it been (rightly) ignored until it was an actual thing it would have had literally no negative effect on society or the Warriors, instead we get this crap reporting of a tempest in a teapot. I felt the same way about Pelosi's expensive ice cream ... it's a non-story that became big because the media needs something to push.

    If this is the sort of reporting you like, then fine, but it's some of the worst sports reporting and reporting in general happening.
    Now you're blaming this story for why people are anti-vax? Good ole Scoots, blaming everyone for people's anti-vax sentiments except the people themselves.


    You are the most transparently insidious poster here.

  4. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    To be clear, I am not making the case that the vaccines do not work well in preventing death. That's not my argument. I think it's clear that they DO prevent death and do it well (for now).

    I am saying they do not work well is controlling spread and transmission. And thus, no basis for mandates.

    With regards to Vermont, if they are approaching peak hospitalizations and deaths, with the highest vax rate in the country. Despite the 80% vax rate, hospitalizations and deaths are peaking. What does that tell you?

    The articles you shared seem to key in on a time period where delta was ripping through the south. The media had a field day as that was happening, just like they did the year before. Then it started ripping through the North. That is what we are seeing happen now, just like it did last year. Cases have been steadily decreasing in those "red" states for 4-6 weeks straight now. Just as they are steadily increasing in the "blue" states over the same period.
    First Bolded: It tells me that you're correct in that it is seasonal but incorrect in just assuming because it is seasonal how hard each place gets hit seasonally will be equal regardless of vaccination rates.

    Vermont's hospitalizations and deaths are peaking as the season changes, but it's still nowhere near as high a peak as the season peaks we saw in the South in unvaccinated areas.

  5. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: That you are falling into the same trap Florida did when they said "well we had a peak but now it's time to get back to normal" shortly before they had a peak that was far worse than their initial one.

    Second Bolded: This is Vermont all over again. They set a case record at a whopping 3,000 cases. That is extremely low for a country of their size, particularly for a record. They also had a whopping 9 deaths, of those 5 were partially or unvaccianted. That brings their total death toll from covid to 130...


    How about compare Singapore and Vermont to other countries/states with low vaccination rates instead of comparing them to themselves when they have done excellently handling covid.
    I'm comparing them to themselves because that is how you compare pre-vaccine / post-vaccine, and therefore vaccine efficacy.

    You might be right on India, or they will make the case for natural immunity being much stronger than the vaccines with regards to reinfection. Time will tell. My gut says they probably get another wave at some point. I think they demonstrate the idea that "the virus is gonna virus" and regardless of vaccination status, it will ebb and flow and have peaks and lows. And you can hit peak lows with piss poor vaccine status just like you can hit peak highs with 80% vaccinated.

  6. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    First Bolded: It tells me that you're correct in that it is seasonal but incorrect in just assuming because it is seasonal how hard each place gets hit seasonally will be equal regardless of vaccination rates.

    Vermont's hospitalizations and deaths are peaking as the season changes, but it's still nowhere near as high a peak as the season peaks we saw in the South in unvaccinated areas.
    I don't really think you can cross-compare areas very scientifically. Too many variables to consider. If you argument is that the vaccine is not going to prevent "waves" but it will prevent the severity of a wave, I would agree with you with regards to hospitalizations and deaths. Not cases though. I don't think that has been demonstrated at all.

  7. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I don't really think you can cross-compare areas very scientifically. Too many variables to consider. If you argument is that the vaccine is not going to prevent "waves" but it will prevent the severity of a wave, I would agree with you with regards to hospitalizations and deaths. Not cases though. I don't think that has been demonstrated at all.
    Then how can you argue we shouldn't care or get vaccines if you're admitting they reduce hospitalizations and deaths? Getting covid isn't the bad part, it's the hospitalizations and deaths that are the bad part. If we eliminate those, heck yeah let's get back to normal.

  8. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Do you really need me to connect the following dots:

    Big Pharma sells the world on a vaccine that will shut out the virus (95-99% effective against infection). The data presented falls apart within months (or weeks). I'm sure that was an honest mistake.

    Big Pharma sets ironclad contracts that require massive purchase orders, including more than enough for boosters and children before anything is close to approved in those areas, holds them free from any and all liability ever.

    The world is indebted to Big Pharma due to those purchase orders, which must be filled and paid for even if better vaccine or treatment becomes available (per leaked contract). Sovereign Assets are used as collateral (per leaked contract).

    Historic profits for these companies. Those profits are used to make historic investments in lobbying. Pfizer shoots up to 6th highest-owned stock among members of congress. J&J #7. 25% price hikes already enacted.

    Lobbying result: No one in government can utter the words "natural immunity" - science ignored to favor pharma. Firing tens of thousands of healthcare workers during a pandemic to favor pharma. Incentivizing shots with cheeseburgers and milkshakes, complete silence on comorbidities or the fact that obesity triples your risk of hospitalization. Orchestrated push to vaccinate children, despite having a higher chance of a serious reaction to the vaccine then they do a serious reaction to COVID. Unscientific mandates being pushed across the board despite clear and obvious evidence the vaccine does not and will not control community spread, government overreach taken to new levels to institute said mandates.

    Public Health Result? Cases up 300% compared to pre-vaccine. Further away from TRUE/natural herd immunity then we would be if we did nothing at all, or took the measured and logical approach of vaccinating the at-risk and leaving the low risk alone.

    Pharma profits off keeping people naturally unhealthy and dependent on their drugs. They shower the government with money to make sure policy is crafted in their favor, and not in the favor of the public. They infiltrate the media to make sure the message is crafted in their favor, and not in the favor of the public. This is absolutely textbook "big pharma". Just because we are making them rich indirectly through our tax dollars in this current model does not change a thing.
    Yeah, you're right. You don't sound like a conspiracy theorist at all.

    Also, I'd love you to source your "300%" statistic and where you got it from. We covered this a few pages ago, but it's pretty clear that COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths peaked in January, way before the vaccine was available to most Americans.

    And I suppose we're just going to ignore the fact that the delta variant is a mutated form of the virus that was not tested with the vaccines during the clinical trials on account of the fact that it didn't exist when clinical trials were performed on the three vaccines? It's hard to be 90%+ effective against a virus variant that doesn't exist.


  9. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Now you're blaming this story for why people are anti-vax? Good ole Scoots, blaming everyone for people's anti-vax sentiments except the people themselves.


    You are the most transparently insidious poster here.
    No, I'm not blaming anything for anything. I merely think this story didn't help.

  10. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    No, I'm not blaming anything for anything. I merely think this story didn't help.
    I don't think it had any affect on whether someone is anti-vax.

  11. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    So, a couple of things here worth noting.

    1. You're using Labor Day 2020 as a baseline comparison, but that's not fair. COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths hadn't come close to peaking at that point. They peaked in the winter at the tail end of 2020 and start of 2021. (To be fair, I said "last fall," but I should have said "last winter.")

    2. Of course there were more deaths in 2021. As I just stated above, everything peaked last winter, and deaths typically trail cases by a couple of weeks. Using the NYT link I shared above, the worst stretch of COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. wasn't in 2020, it was from early January to early February 2021.

    3. Also, the vaccine wasn't even approved for emergency use until December, and the rollout of it was fairly slow. The majority of the population didn't even have access to it until April or May.

    Bottom line, the notion that things have been worse since since the vaccine has been widely available is just totally inaccurate. Despite this being a more powerful, more contagious version of the virus than the wave we experienced in the winter, there have been fewer cases, hospitalizations and deaths than there were at the peak back in January.
    You got a point there…

  12. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Then how can you argue we shouldn't care or get vaccines if you're admitting they reduce hospitalizations and deaths? Getting covid isn't the bad part, it's the hospitalizations and deaths that are the bad part. If we eliminate those, heck yeah let's get back to normal.
    It’s because they are at so little risk. It’s a selfish way to look at it. And with choice comes consequences. Unfortunately the unvaccinated take up the majority of Covid cases. When peaks happen you take away staff from other departments and real estate to perform other duties a hospital should perform. In Colorado, hospitals are telling us now we have limited beds to perform what they consider elective surgeries. People’s decision to not get vaxed is a detriment to those needing procedures done to get back to work, live a decent life, be able to exercise again.

    Covid will be around forever, much like the flu. You will get cases of the vaxed and unvaxed. But if you build a big enough army of vaxed, hospitals and the staff will get to do their job for the patients that need specific treatment. Places won’t have to shut down business.

    At the end of the day it is your choice and I prefer the freedom then the federal government mandating vaccines etc. doesn’t stop me from having my opinion on what science tells us. But the majority aren’t listening to science, it’s the bias that is for the most part political.

  13. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't think it had any affect on whether someone is anti-vax.
    What would you say to the people who currently are hospitalized from the Moderna vaccine with heart inflammation?

    Sweden has banned Moderna for men over 30. Ontario Canada is strongly advising against Moderna for men between the ages of 19-30

    Last year no one knew Moderna would have these sort of side effects. In my province alone over 100 men have been hospitalized for heart inflammation. Don't you think that is concerning? Wouldn't it make you think twice about the side effects of these vaccines which we don't know yet? I'm not anti vax, but I can certainly see why people would have fear and be hesitant.

  14. #779
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    You're getting paid millions to dribble a ball. Particularly, if you are a superstar who earns the max, the team is paying you anywhere from $25-$50 million. Teams have the right to protect their investment so IMO, this should be a league mandate. Either you play or we don't pay you and have the option to revoke your contract. Yeah, it's going to be contested by the Players Union and likely reach the courts but you can't be this delusional to think you aren't held to a higher standard than some regular folk.

  15. #780
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    https://www.yahoo.com/sports/andrew-...124234992.html

    Wiggins says he was forced to take the vaccine and did not want to take it.

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