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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Heís only 26. This is premature. Heís really only entering his prime.
    See all my posts above on why I disagree.


  2. #17
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    Giannis at 26 he has like at least another decade and a half to win more titles and I can easily see him doin that

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post

    The only benefit you get from waiting is longevity. But, for me, longevity is one of the least important barometers when I compare the all-time greats.

    So this is the one thing I wanted to see. Because yes longevity of the peak matters a bunch in all time legacies to me.


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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I think he's already earned being in that top 25-30 conversation. If you compare him to Kawhi, who many on this site put in that same range, what has Kawhi done that Giannis hasn't? I think that with the Finals win, the iconic Game 6 performance and the Finals MVP, he's already surpassed him despite being four years younger. He's just the superior statistical player, has more regular season hardware and now has the same number of alpha dog championships.

    The other guy worth comparing him to is Durant, a similar player who had a similar career trajectory, but didn't win his Finals until after joining Golden State. Durant is a lock in my top 20 already with a decent chance to finish somewhere in that top 15 range and an outside chance to arguably deserve top 10 consideration if he could earn another ring or two. Durant's unquestionably the better scorer, but when you factor in Giannis' defense, the playmaking, and that alpha dog title and Finals MVP, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility he could pass Durant's legacy someday.

    If Giannis stays around long enough and does more superhuman things, I legitimately don't think it's impossible for him to be a top 10 guy some day. We cling to our lists and try to avoid recency bias as much as possible, but the man has surpassed an aging Lebron as the most statistically dominant player in the league. And now he's gotten over the championship hurdle at only 26, a year earlier than Lebron. The biggest challenge will be team success or lack therof. Can Milwaukee come back and do this again, or was this a fluke? If it was, will he have to look elsewhere for championships in a few seasons like Lebron and KD?
    Kawhi has won multiple championships with multiple teams.
    Kawhi is a multiple time FMVP.
    Kawhi is a multiple time DPOY player.
    Kawhi has only had 1x first round playoff exit; Giannis has had multiple.


    Don't get me wrong, I love Giannis and feel he isn't far off from Kawhi, but to say he has passed Kawhi is just not accurate. I get it's starting to become popular to hate on Kawhi, but he is a notch above Giannis at this point. I think Giannis has the ability to surpass him though. We'll see if he does.

    Nevertheless, I think Giannis pretty much passes D. Wade when we consider peak performance. Career-wise it's still too early. I don't really have a doubt Giannis will pass Wade though.
    2015 Bull's Mock Trade Game Championship Team

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum187 View Post
    Kawhi has won multiple championships with multiple teams.
    Kawhi is a multiple time FMVP.
    Kawhi is a multiple time DPOY player.
    Kawhi has only had 1x first round playoff exit; Giannis has had multiple.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Giannis and feel he isn't far off from Kawhi, but to say he has passed Kawhi is just not accurate. I get it's starting to become popular to hate on Kawhi, but he is a notch above Giannis at this point. I think Giannis has the ability to surpass him though. We'll see if he does.

    Nevertheless, I think Giannis pretty much passes D. Wade when we consider peak performance. Career-wise it's still too early. I don't really have a doubt Giannis will pass Wade though.
    Giannis statistically the last three seasons has just been a better player than anything we've seen out of peak Kawhi. Also, Kawhi is constantly getting hurt and just kind of coasts during the regular season. He's only played in 70+ games in a season twice in 10 seasons. Giannis has done it six times in eight seasons, and the two exceptions were COVID-shortened years. There's a reason why Giannis has two MVPs and Kawhi has none.

    Fun stat: Giannis has played in 13 more games and has 1,100 more minutes played than Kawhi despite getting drafted two years after Kawhi.

    The first round exits are also a pretty misleading stat, because Kawhi was a supporting cast member on his first few Spurs teams, and he was hardly the alpha dog on the Spurs team that won him his first ring. He got the Finals MVP, but I don't know that he was the best player on that team.


  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Giannis statistically the last three seasons has just been a better player than anything we've seen out of peak Kawhi. Also, Kawhi is constantly getting hurt and just kind of coasts during the regular season. He's only played in 70+ games in a season twice in 10 seasons. Giannis has done it six times in eight seasons, and the two exceptions were COVID-shortened years. There's a reason why Giannis has two MVPs and Kawhi has none.

    Fun stat: Giannis has played in 13 more games and has 1,100 more minutes played than Kawhi despite getting drafted two years after Kawhi.

    The first round exits are also a pretty misleading stat, because Kawhi was a supporting cast member on his first few Spurs teams, and he was hardly the alpha dog on the Spurs team that won him his first ring. He got the Finals MVP, but I don't know that he was the best player on that team.

    Plus at this point would rather have Giannis on my team or to even build a franchise around, than that of Kawhi

  7. #22
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    This is why I value peak so much when ranking players. Do people actually believe Scottie Pippen was a better more impactful player than Giannis?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Giannis statistically the last three seasons has just been a better player than anything we've seen out of peak Kawhi. Also, Kawhi is constantly getting hurt and just kind of coasts during the regular season. He's only played in 70+ games in a season twice in 10 seasons. Giannis has done it six times in eight seasons, and the two exceptions were COVID-shortened years. There's a reason why Giannis has two MVPs and Kawhi has none.

    Fun stat: Giannis has played in 13 more games and has 1,100 more minutes played than Kawhi despite getting drafted two years after Kawhi.

    The first round exits are also a pretty misleading stat, because Kawhi was a supporting cast member on his first few Spurs teams, and he was hardly the alpha dog on the Spurs team that won him his first ring. He got the Finals MVP, but I don't know that he was the best player on that team.
    I feel like maximum effort Kawhi is probably slightly more impactful than Giannis, but we only saw that Kawhi for like a year and a half. Now he doesnít play a quarter of the season and coasts the rest.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is why I value peak so much when ranking players. Do people actually believe Scottie Pippen was a better more impactful player than Giannis?
    Could be argued George Mikan had 4 of the top 50 individual greatest seasons in the NBA. Does his peak put him up there then?


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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Could be argued George Mikan had 4 of the top 50 individual greatest seasons in the NBA. Does his peak put him up there then?
    No, because I mean peak not just peak relative to peers. I donít just take peak stats or accolades into account, I take peak skills too.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    No, because I mean peak not just peak relative to peers. I donít just take peak stats or accolades into account, I take peak skills too.
    He was more than double the win shares of 2nd place in his peak season. Played before MVPs existed so he couldnít get one.

    Not saying the methodology is wrong. Just pointing out that we donít even consider the peak the same way across time.

    I move guys around after their career is over based on the longevity of their peak in their career.

    Like I canít think of an example off the top of my head (and Iíve been drinking) but on a scale of 1-100; would you rank a guy with a 3 year peak at 98 or a guy with a 7 year peak at 92?


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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    He was more than double the win shares of 2nd place in his peak season. Played before MVPs existed so he couldnít get one.

    Not saying the methodology is wrong. Just pointing out that we donít even consider the peak the same way across time.

    I move guys around after their career is over based on the longevity of their peak in their career.

    Like I canít think of an example off the top of my head (and Iíve been drinking) but on a scale of 1-100; would you rank a guy with a 3 year peak at 98 or a guy with a 7 year peak at 92?
    I donít really care about win shares in a singular season so much as literally how good that player is. We donít consider peaks from the 50ís because we analyze their basketball skill and realize they were nowhere near as skilled as modern players (or even players of 10-15 years later when the game became more strategic and technical).

    I generally rate based off who Iíd most want on my team based on their ability at their best. For example, itís silly to me for someone to say Robert Parish was a better player than Bill Walton because he played far longer. Walton was the better player.

    But I agree itís a very complicated science ranking players and I donít think ranking players based on longevity is wrong, it takes a lot to be good for a long time.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I donít really care about win shares in a singular season so much as literally how good that player is. We donít consider peaks from the 50ís because we analyze their basketball skill and realize they were nowhere near as skilled as modern players (or even players of 10-15 years later when the game became more strategic and technical).

    I generally rate based off who Iíd most want on my team based on their ability at their best. For example, itís silly to me for someone to say Robert Parish was a better player than Bill Walton because he played far longer. Walton was the better player.

    But I agree itís a very complicated science ranking players and I donít think ranking players based on longevity is wrong, it takes a lot to be good for a long time.
    Fair enough.

    And because itís so complicated thatís why I prefer to see the end. Like I agree that Bill Walton should be higher than Parish. But if someone wanted to put Parish higher I think the longer peak level play wouldnít bother me as an argument.


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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Giannis statistically the last three seasons has just been a better player than anything we've seen out of peak Kawhi. Also, Kawhi is constantly getting hurt and just kind of coasts during the regular season. He's only played in 70+ games in a season twice in 10 seasons. Giannis has done it six times in eight seasons, and the two exceptions were COVID-shortened years. There's a reason why Giannis has two MVPs and Kawhi has none.

    Fun stat: Giannis has played in 13 more games and has 1,100 more minutes played than Kawhi despite getting drafted two years after Kawhi.

    The first round exits are also a pretty misleading stat, because Kawhi was a supporting cast member on his first few Spurs teams, and he was hardly the alpha dog on the Spurs team that won him his first ring. He got the Finals MVP, but I don't know that he was the best player on that team.
    IDK, because Giannis is in the east, Kawhi has played nearly his whole career in the west. The fact that Giannis has been bounced in the first round in the weak *** east does say something and that something isn't flattering.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I donít really care about win shares in a singular season so much as literally how good that player is. We donít consider peaks from the 50ís because we analyze their basketball skill and realize they were nowhere near as skilled as modern players (or even players of 10-15 years later when the game became more strategic and technical).

    I generally rate based off who Iíd most want on my team based on their ability at their best. For example, itís silly to me for someone to say Robert Parish was a better player than Bill Walton because he played far longer. Walton was the better player.

    But I agree itís a very complicated science ranking players and I donít think ranking players based on longevity is wrong, it takes a lot to be good for a long time.
    In some ways, this is a little unfair to those players. We don't know how skilled they would be if they played in today's game.
    The game that became more skilled was built on the backs of those guys, guys who worked a job in the off-season and played in flat tops. It's not really fair to them to say they were "less skilled"

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