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  1. #1
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    Where does Giannis rank all time now?

    For me Giannis if he keeps winning NBA titles with the Bucks and wins another regular season MVP as well as another DPOY, Giannis for me would be top 20. For me he's like in my top 30 all time of best players to ever play the game and he's still young too so take that in.

  2. #2
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    I think he's already earned being in that top 25-30 conversation. If you compare him to Kawhi, who many on this site put in that same range, what has Kawhi done that Giannis hasn't? I think that with the Finals win, the iconic Game 6 performance and the Finals MVP, he's already surpassed him despite being four years younger. He's just the superior statistical player, has more regular season hardware and now has the same number of alpha dog championships.

    The other guy worth comparing him to is Durant, a similar player who had a similar career trajectory, but didn't win his Finals until after joining Golden State. Durant is a lock in my top 20 already with a decent chance to finish somewhere in that top 15 range and an outside chance to arguably deserve top 10 consideration if he could earn another ring or two. Durant's unquestionably the better scorer, but when you factor in Giannis' defense, the playmaking, and that alpha dog title and Finals MVP, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility he could pass Durant's legacy someday.

    If Giannis stays around long enough and does more superhuman things, I legitimately don't think it's impossible for him to be a top 10 guy some day. We cling to our lists and try to avoid recency bias as much as possible, but the man has surpassed an aging Lebron as the most statistically dominant player in the league. And now he's gotten over the championship hurdle at only 26, a year earlier than Lebron. The biggest challenge will be team success or lack therof. Can Milwaukee come back and do this again, or was this a fluke? If it was, will he have to look elsewhere for championships in a few seasons like Lebron and KD?


  3. #3
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    Too early to confidently say.


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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Too early to confidently say.


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    Boo! C'mon, that's a cop out answer. The man is a two-time MVP, a Finals MVP, a DPOY, a three-time All-NBA 1st team and three-time All-Defensive 1st team guy. If he retired tomorrow, he'll already have accomplished more than what 90+% of all NBA superstars do in their entire careers. Look at Bill Walton. We judge his legacy and generally consider him a top 50 guy, and his resume isn't even this impressive.


  5. #5
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    Giannis could be top 5 or top 10 by the time he retires. For me I compare him to an early and young Hakeem. But just as dominant as a young Shaq like think Orlando Magic 1990s Shaq.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Boo! C'mon, that's a cop out answer. The man is a two-time MVP, a Finals MVP, a DPOY, a three-time All-NBA 1st team and three-time All-Defensive 1st team guy. If he retired tomorrow, he'll already have accomplished more than what 90+% of all NBA superstars do in their entire careers. Look at Bill Walton. We judge his legacy and generally consider him a top 50 guy, and his resume isn't even this impressive.
    But if his career ended tomorrow itís an 8 year career. How do you reconcile that with the career long arcs of Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Duncan, KG, Hayes? And thatís even just his position.

    What about careers of guys like Pete Maravich? Yao Ming? Ralph Sampson? Andrew Toney?

    Since you brought up Bill Walton, and say his resume isnít impressive.
    In less games than Giannis -
    2◊ NBA champion (1977, 1986)
    NBA Finals MVP (1977)
    NBA Most Valuable Player (1978)
    2◊ NBA All-Star (1977, 1978)
    All-NBA First Team (1978)
    All-NBA Second Team (1977)
    2◊ NBA All-Defensive First Team (1977, 1978)
    NBA Sixth Man of the Year (1986)
    NBA rebounding leader (1977)
    NBA blocks leader (1977)
    And itís not a dislike of recency bias; itís more I want to see what the total resume looks like when they are done. I have a hard time in rating guys as they play. After Nashís second MVP couldnít it be easy to say heís one of the best PGís of all time and easily a top 25 player? Does he sit there now?


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    But if his career ended tomorrow itís an 8 year career. How do you reconcile that with the career long arcs of Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Duncan, KG, Hayes? And thatís even just his position.

    What about careers of guys like Pete Maravich? Yao Ming? Ralph Sampson? Andrew Toney?
    I would 100% put him above all the bolded guys and not think twice about it. Like at all. And that's saying something because three of them are Rockets and one of them (Yao) is easily one of my top 5 all-time favorite Rockets. And c'mon man. Andrew Toney? Don't be a homer. Even mentioning him in the same breath as Giannis is disrespectful.

    Since you brought up Bill Walton, and say his resume isnít impressive.
    Hold up. Go back and read what I wrote; nowhere did I say Walton's resume wasn't impressive. I'm a huge Walton fan historically. He's someone I almost always try to squeeze into my top 40 whenever I get that far down. I said his resume wasn't as impressive as Giannis, and it's not.

    And itís not a dislike of recency bias; itís more I want to see what the total resume looks like when they are done. I have a hard time in rating guys as they play. After Nashís second MVP couldnít it be easy to say heís one of the best PGís of all time and easily a top 25 player? Does he sit there now?
    I'm just not a fan of this take. You're essentially saying we can't have legitimate legacy conversations until guys are retired. Why? At the end of the day, all we do is compare their games, their stats, their accolades and their postseason performances. Based on your take, the whole "Where does Lebron rank? Is he better than Kobe/Jordan?" conversation is useless, but I guarantee you've had that conversation with someone at some point. (That being said, I do think the Lebron legacy conversation gets old.)

    And, sure, you could make the case that Nash is a top 25 guy. I probably wouldn't put him there, but there's definitely a case for it. Why would we think any differently today than we did the moment he got that second MVP award? If you were a believer in "Nash is a top 25 guy now" in that moment, then the only thing that hurts him that should have knocked him off that list for you is that other guys came along who were better and knocked him out of that conversation.
    Last edited by mightybosstone; 07-23-2021 at 12:18 PM.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I would 100% put him above all the bolded guys and not think twice about it. Like at all. And that's saying something because three of them are Rockets and one of them (Yao) is easily one of my top 5 all-time favorite Rockets. And c'mon man. Andrew Toney? Don't be a homer. Even mentioning him in the same breath as Giannis is disrespectful.
    That's not even what I was doing with the bolded. So...yeah. It's not about where he ranks ompared to those guys, it's about how difficult it can be to talk about the legacy of a guy who's career wasn't fully told.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Hold up. Go back and read what I wrote; nowhere did I say Walton's resume wasn't impressive. I'm a huge Walton fan historically. He's someone I almost always try to squeeze into my top 40 whenever I get that far down. I said his resume wasn't as impressive as Giannis, and it's not.
    Fine you get that on semantics by saying his resume isn't this impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I'm just not a fan of this take. You're essentially saying we can't have legitimate legacy conversations until guys are retired. Why? At the end of the day, all we do is compare their games, their stats, their accolades and their postseason performances. Based on your take, the whole "Where does Lebron rank? Is he better than Kobe/Jordan?" conversation is useless, but I guarantee you've had that conversation with someone at some point. (That being said, I do think the Lebron legacy conversation gets old.)
    I honestly haven't had that conversation. You don't like that take? Fine you do you. I don't like the take of having to talk about players as they play because I feel it's what leads to recency bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    And, sure, you could make the case that Nash is a top 25 guy. I probably wouldn't put him there, but there's definitely a case for it. Why would we think any differently today than we did the moment he got that second MVP award? If you were a believer in "Nash is a top 25 guy now" in that moment, then the only thing that hurts him that should have knocked him off that list for you is that other guys came along who were better and knocked him out of that conversation.
    Honestly don't get your point here.

    Look, just because I'm not a fan of saying where a guy's legacy is before it's over doesn't make it a wrong take. Just different than your opinion of rating players. So when you make your list if Giannis becomes the 20th best all time does that slide the old 20 down to 21, or re-adjust the entire list and make someone else fall out and the 20th stays there? That's why I rather wait for careers to be over to worry about things like this.

  9. #9
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    Top 30 now, same range as Hakeem when he retires.

  10. #10
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    Yea, saw a list that was published after the bucks win that had him at 26. It was only top 30, so 26 put him in front of Iverson, Stockton, Isiah and Kawhi. And just behind Wade, Pippen, Moses and Baylor. That feels pretty okay to be honest.

    I think a few more years at a similar level to what he's currently at, even without anymore MVP, DPOY or rings probably gets him up to low 20s, high teens. Add in another MVP or two or another ring or two in the next 5 years and your probably looking at low teens to even top 7 or 8 probably.

  11. #11
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    I mean he's already a lock for the hall after winning MVP, the real question is whats it going to take to be along side the other great big men, Malone, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Timmy, Dirk.
    Guys like Russell and Wilt were just monsters from a other era, so they're hard to compare. Id say if he can get 4 titles and 30k points along with another DPOY he's top 5 all time and maybe the greatest big of the modern er.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    I mean he's already a lock for the hall after winning MVP, the real question is whats it going to take to be along side the other great big men, Malone, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Timmy, Dirk.
    Guys like Russell and Wilt were just monsters from a other era, so they're hard to compare. Id say if he can get 4 titles and 30k points along with another DPOY he's top 5 all time and maybe the greatest big of the modern er.
    Only way is if he wins at least 4 more titles and he wins another MVP and DPOY within that time frame

  13. #13
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    Heís only 26. This is premature. Heís really only entering his prime.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Heís only 26. This is premature. Heís really only entering his prime.



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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    That's not even what I was doing with the bolded. So...yeah. It's not about where he ranks ompared to those guys, it's about how difficult it can be to talk about the legacy of a guy who's career wasn't fully told.
    Sampson and Toney were really good players. And if we took their careers at age 26 or the same number of seasons that Giannis has had, they would not remotely be in the conversation of top 100 players of all-time. Maybe back in the 80s they would have been, and you would have had a legitimate case, but not now.

    That's the beauty of having these conversations. Your opinion changes with time. Right now, Giannis is a top 25-30 guy. In 3-5 years, maybe he's a top 15-20 guy. Or maybe he gets a series of chronic injuries and never plays this well again, and he drops down because other guys surpass him. There's no harm in having an opinion on a player's legacy while that guy is still in the league.

    Fine you get that on semantics by saying his resume isn't this impressive.
    lol. It's clearly not semantics. I was clearly comparing his career accolades with Giannis.

    I honestly haven't had that conversation. You don't like that take? Fine you do you. I don't like the take of having to talk about players as they play because I feel it's what leads to recency bias.
    That's fine. Then you're the one NBA fan on the planet who hasn't.

    Honestly don't get your point here.
    My point is that you're acting like something dramatically changed from the point when Nash got his second MVP and the point when he retired. It didn't. If your take on him in that moment is that Nash is a top 25 guy, nothing that happened afterward was likely to sway you differently.

    That's the point I'm trying to make. You don't have to wait until a player retires to have an opinion on their standing compared to other all-time greats. I didn't need to see Nash play 5-6 more seasons past his prime to know he was a great player. Just like I don't need to watch Giannis play 10 more years to know he's an all-time great.

    The only benefit you get from waiting is longevity. But, for me, longevity is one of the least important barometers when I compare the all-time greats.

    Look, just because I'm not a fan of saying where a guy's legacy is before it's over doesn't make it a wrong take. Just different than your opinion of rating players. So when you make your list if Giannis becomes the 20th best all time does that slide the old 20 down to 21, or re-adjust the entire list and make someone else fall out and the 20th stays there? That's why I rather wait for careers to be over to worry about things like this.
    Never said your take was wrong, just that I disagreed with it. This is all totally subjective. There is no "right" or 'wrong" when talking about stuff like this.

    And, yes, if I were to sit down and make a top 30 list, someone is dropping off that list to make room for Giannis. Like I mentioned Kawhi earlier. But maybe it's not Kawhi; maybe it's Malone or Pippen or Stockton (all just examples of guys I'd have in that 25-30 range). That's the fun of these conversations. It's never "too early" to have a fun discussion like this. It's why I always enjoyed the all-time NBA re-drafts we used to do on PSD way more than the regular re-drafts.


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