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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    so then whats the point of your stat. if a loss is a loss then why does it matter?
    It's all about how you finish the job.

    Paul had control of the outcome of the game in his hands multiple times and showed his true value.

    There's no stats anyone can show me that could begin to convince me he's a top 5 PG with the way that he responds in critical situations.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I think itís a little ridiculous to use his teamís record as if he is solely responsible. Did his play contribute to those losses? Absolutely, but itís not like it was all his fault. Take Game 6 for example. I know we can play the what if game but the other starters went a combined 19/52 including 2/17 from 3. Itís not like CP3 was the only one who played bad, in fact he played the best of any of the starters that game. But people are acting like heís the reason they lost.
    https://youtu.be/Oj1AjUoSgvY
    https://youtu.be/5lfsf8bm6rA
    https://youtu.be/cU057oEZ9xI

    I can just keep doing this all... day... long!

    Meanwhile I'm certain you can continue to talk about one turnover from IT against the Celtics. Paul has consistently choked by his play (not even his injuries). The game has been in his hands and he's been passive, indecisive, or made reckless mistakes.

  3. #213
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    Off the top of my head, the 2-0 losses all represent a par for the course finish given the context or at best, an overachievement. This year might be the best one I could be swayed on but I dont think I'd be alone in suggesting the Bucks were the superior and healthier team. An NBA ****ing Finals at age 35 lol. He'd be better off if his Suns just lost to LeBron in R.1 like many thought they would I guess.

    The 2-0 loss vs the Blazers was a given once he and Blake succumbed to injuries, a common tale in these losses.



    I was actually there for the much of the Grizz series, it was a great rivalry, we had beaten them the year prior in a tight 7 game series, shockingly despite not going up 2-0. The reason? They were completely different teams. Blakes game was still athleticism reliant back then so an injury really effected him. He went from averaging 18Pts in his first ever playoff series vs this same team to only averaging 13 in 26 MPG. He came off the bench in his final game and played like 19mpg in the last 2. Dude was hobbled, IIRC, he injured himself in practice or the final week of the season. Not to mention the team had lost Chauncey Billups to injury and when he came back was a shell of his soon to be retired self.

    The Grizz did improve but so did we, I think its fair to say we would have won if Blake had been healthy, at the very least its another tit for tat 7 game series that can go either way but an improved blake would have been better after getting his feet wet the year prior.
    He went up 2-0 vs the defending champs but thats another series that played out as it should have, especially after the injury to either West or Tyson, I forget which.



    So thats what we're damning him for.

    His first playoff run where his upstart Pelicans squad beat the breaks off Dirk and Kidd only to lose to the defending champs. A Finals at age 35 vs a GOAT prospect. And then 2 injury riddled playoff series where Blake broke down leaving him without another co-star, once against an elite defense.

    For comparisons sake, take a gander at what CP3 did to the 2nd ranked defense in the league that series vs the Grizz.


    23PTS-6Ast on .633 TS%
    132 ORTG (Up from RS) 29.2 PER (Up from RS) .267WSx48
    All this resulted in a team offense that was still among the most efficient in the league/loffs so it was obvious their defense did them in more than anything, that said, its impressive to be under this kind of defensive environment yet still produce a capable offense.

    Now lets compare that display to what a superior player did vs that same team the very next round.

    29PTS-7AST on .531 TS%
    103 ORTG (down from RS) roughly 22 to 23 PER (down as well) and his teams offense sputtered along the way.

    Now Im not trying to say CP3 is better than KD, I just think he outplayed him vs the same opposition. And for that accomplishment, he is getting bashed when he should have just lost sooner and won less games ala KD. TBH, KD+Kmart+Ibaka+Reggie Jackson should have put up more of a fight but thats just me.
    Last edited by Chronz; 07-24-2021 at 05:53 PM.
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  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    It's all about how you finish the job.

    Paul had control of the outcome of the game in his hands multiple times and showed his true value.

    There's no stats anyone can show me that could begin to convince me he's a top 5 PG with the way that he responds in critical situations.
    If you dont finish the job, which the vast majority of players in NBA history dont in the vast majority of their careers, wouldn't you rather them come close than not at all?

    Paul getting to that point is more impressive to me than seeing guys you prolly think are better than him but are also ringless, just lose without getting as close.

    Like gimme your top -5 and ill show you far worse failures. Like what PG was doing what CP3 just did at this stage in his career? Depending on what you view as the same stage (age vs years served) Stockton was losing in way worse fashion and wasn't even tasked with carrying the team to the same degree as an All-NBA performer. Theres nothing about this year that diminishes CP3, we should agree on that much but give it a shot.
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  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    https://youtu.be/Oj1AjUoSgvY
    https://youtu.be/5lfsf8bm6rA
    https://youtu.be/cU057oEZ9xI

    I can just keep doing this all... day... long!

    Meanwhile I'm certain you can continue to talk about one turnover from IT against the Celtics. Paul has consistently choked by his play (not even his injuries). The game has been in his hands and he's been passive, indecisive, or made reckless mistakes.
    Well itís not just that one pass. How about Isiahís 4/12 10 Pt clunker G7 vs the Lakers to lose the title? Or his 6/14 5 ast 4 TO performance G4 vs the Bulls to get swept? Or that entire series in general where he barely put up 16/7 on terrible efficiency? Or his 10/28 (40% TS) 25 pt G7 vs the Celtics where he fouled out?

    Isiah has plenty of bad performances in big moments. Hell he didnít even play that well in 90 to beat the Bulls that year, their defense carried him to that victory.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    If you dont finish the job, which the vast majority of players in NBA history dont in the vast majority of their careers, wouldn't you rather them come close than not at all?

    Paul getting to that point is more impressive to me than seeing guys you prolly think are better than him but are also ringless, just lose without getting as close.

    Like gimme your top -5 and ill show you far worse failures. Like what PG was doing what CP3 just did at this stage in his career? Depending on what you view as the same stage (age vs years served) Stockton was losing in way worse fashion and wasn't even tasked with carrying the team to the same degree as an All-NBA performer. Theres nothing about this year that diminishes CP3, we should agree on that much but give it a shot.
    I agree that nothing from this season diminishes his career. It just reinforces my belief that CP3 is not as good as people think.

    Great regular season player, great overall numbers in the playoffs, but choked in critical situations when the team needed him most in the clutch. There's just too many video clips I can post of him being horrible in pivotal points in the game that decided the outcome. Not even him playing from way behind and being reckless in his aggression... No, just bad play with the game in control.

    This doesn't even bring his abrasive leadership or injury timing into the equation which are both detractors.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    I agree that nothing from this season diminishes his career. It just reinforces my belief that CP3 is not as good as people think.

    Great regular season player, great overall numbers in the playoffs, but choked in critical situations when the team needed him most in the clutch. There's just too many video clips I can post of him being horrible in pivotal points in the game that decided the outcome. Not even him playing from way behind and being reckless in his aggression... No, just bad play with the game in control.

    This doesn't even bring his abrasive leadership or injury timing into the equation which are both detractors.
    Yes but hes never lost with a superior team, Im sure if he and RWB swapped places that series you mentioned is a W for CP3 and I know for a fact that RWB wouldn't get our team that close. And thats not even OKC's best player vs our best player. The Thunder should have won that series and they did. CP3 is being punished for putting up a fight in most of these examples.

    I think his only true let down was with the Rockets in Year 2 when they lost to a KD-Less Warriors. That year the offense had changed and Harden refused to do anything without the ball and CP3 didn't have a meaningful role unless Harden was off the court.
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  8. #218
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    CP3 vs all the Point-God candidates (an ongoing series)


    VS Kidd:
    CP3 was a superior phenom and actually gave new life to the franchise that drafted him. At age 20 he had one of the best rookie seasons of the modern era and had his team in the playoffs by 22. Alternatively, Kidd was co-ROY at 21 and toiled away for 2 years on a dysfunctional Dallas team that missed the playoffs all 2.5 of his seasons there.

    He landed in Phoenix where they would make the playoffs 5 years straight, starting at age 23 but he didn't truly enter his prime until age 25 when all the other PG's on the team aged out. He began to assert his will on the game more and did what most playmaking prospects do as they age, they begin to cut down on the turnover%. CP3 never had to learn that, tho thats in part due to a technical weakness in his game.

    In that 5 year stretch Kidd's Suns suffered the following defeats.

    1-3 to the Spurs with Kidd shooting 38% for the series and 4-16 in the final game. Understandable given the talent differential but I gotta watch the tape to see how Avery Johnson averaged 20.

    An 0-3 to the JailBlazers in 99, a series where Kidd averaged 15-10, least he upped his efficiency to a whopping 42% from the field and improved upon his 0% 3pt percentage to 25%. Good series, sorta.

    A 1-3 Loss to the Kings with him shooting the now customary 32% from the field.

    The one series the Suns did win came with Kidd sidelined and it was against a team that had just lost Tim Duncan, which if you knew D-Robs history, you'd know he would struggle mightily as the #1 option in the playoffs. That was Anfernees final farewell as an all-star ish player too. They did push the Sonics to an elimination G.5 in the year Kidd was first traded there but he wasn't even his teams best player yet.


    Thats 8 years of nothing coming close to CP3's virginity popping playoff run at 22 years old when he spanked Kidd's *** and pushed the defending champs to 6. The phenom case is closed. What comes next makes the debate worthy...


    CP3 battles injuries for the next few years, has an embarrassing showing vs Denver (injured) but in his final season with the Hornets/Pels, he again pushes the defending champion to 6 games with him just lighting it up with advanced stats that would lead the playoffs if he qualified.
    Admittedly, the matchup was in his favor with an old Fisher as the primary defender and 2 slow footed bigs switching onto him. Still, this was the leagues best defense (upon Bynums return) and his team was severely outmanned as David West was out with injury. It was yet another virtuoso performance in defeat. Much better than the kind of losses Kidd has suffered to this point.

    He comes to the Clippers when he should have been a Laker if not for a smart GM/Commish. He leads the franchise to new heights and has those series vs the Grizz I outlined above.


    Consider that Kidd came in abit younger and was a year younger when he was slapped around by CP3, we were already saying Kidd was done as a star and when he won his ring he was a role player at an age when CP3 was leading his team to the Finals.

    Im sorry but those 2 Finals runs when he never beat a team worthy of note in a ****** conference aren't enough to offset all this. That Spurs team that CP3 bested with that incredible game winner is a better accomplishment than any team Kidd defeated as a star. People discount it because it was in R.1 but thats how tough the West was and it was so unfair the league changed a rule to prevent such a matchup from happening again.
    Last edited by Chronz; 07-24-2021 at 08:24 PM.
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  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    CP3 vs all the Point-God candidates (an ongoing series)


    VS Kidd:
    CP3 was a superior phenom and actually gave new life to the franchise that drafted him. At age 20 he had one of the best rookie seasons of the modern era and had his team in the playoffs by 22. Alternatively, Kidd was co-ROY at 21 and toiled away for 2 years on a dysfunctional Dallas team that missed the playoffs all 2.5 of his seasons there.

    He landed in Phoenix where they would make the playoffs 5 years straight, starting at age 23 but he didn't truly enter his prime until age 25 when all the other PG's on the team aged out. He began to assert his will on the game more and did what most playmaking prospects do as they age, they begin to cut down on the turnover%. CP3 never had to learn that, tho thats in part due to a technical weakness in his game.

    In that 5 year stretch Kidd's Suns suffered the following defeats.

    1-3 to the Spurs with Kidd shooting 38% for the series and 4-16 in the final game. Understandable given the talent differential but I gotta watch the tape to see how Avery Johnson averaged 20.

    An 0-3 to the JailBlazers in 99, a series where Kidd averaged 15-10, least he upped his efficiency to a whopping 42% from the field and improved upon his 0% 3pt percentage to 25%. Good series, sorta.

    A 1-3 Loss to the Kings with him shooting the now customary 32% from the field.

    The one series the Suns did win came with Kidd sidelined and it was against a team that had just lost Tim Duncan, which if you knew D-Robs history, you'd know he would struggle mightily as the #1 option in the playoffs. That was Anfernees final farewell as an all-star ish player too. They did push the Sonics to an elimination G.5 in the year Kidd was first traded there but he wasn't even his teams best player yet.


    Thats 8 years of nothing coming close to CP3's virginity popping playoff run at 22 years old when he spanked Kidd's *** and pushed the defending champs to 6. The phenom case is closed. What comes next makes the debate worthy...


    CP3 battles injuries for the next few years, has an embarrassing showing vs Denver (injured) but in his final season with the Hornets/Pels, he again pushes the defending champion to 6 games with him just lighting it up with advanced stats that would lead the playoffs if he qualified.
    Admittedly, the matchup was in his favor with an old Fisher as the primary defender and 2 slow footed bigs switching onto him. Still, this was the leagues best defense (upon Bynums return) and his team was severely outmanned as David West was out with injury. It was yet another virtuoso performance in defeat. Much better than the kind of losses Kidd has suffered to this point.

    He comes to the Clippers when he should have been a Laker if not for a smart GM/Commish. He leads the franchise to new heights and has those series vs the Grizz I outlined above.


    Consider that Kidd came in abit younger and was a year younger when he was slapped around by CP3, we were already saying Kidd was done as a star and when he won his ring he was a role player at an age when CP3 was leading his team to the Finals.

    Im sorry but those 2 Finals runs when he never beat a team worthy of note in a ****** conference aren't enough to offset all this. That Spurs team that CP3 bested with that incredible game winner is a better accomplishment than any team Kidd defeated as a star. People discount it because it was in R.1 but thats how tough the West was and it was so unfair the league changed a rule to prevent such a matchup from happening again.
    What a through and unbiased account. We all learned a lot


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  10. #220
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    A forward has won FMVP 11 straight years


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    what a through and unbiased account. We all learned a lot


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    gimme ur top5
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  12. #222
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    Why are perennial losers and chokers ranked over Isiah Thomas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    gimme ur top5
    Magic
    Curry
    West
    Nash
    Bob Cousy


    Then you have NY greats like Kyrie Irving and Walt Frazier

    Paul is around 10


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    Last edited by ewing; 07-25-2021 at 07:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Magic
    Curry
    West
    Nash
    Bob Cousy


    Then you have NY greats like Kyrie Irving and Walt Frazier

    Paul is around 10


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    describe to me in detail what Bob Cousy was better at than Chris Paul on the court

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    CP3 vs all the Point-God candidates (an ongoing series)


    VS Kidd:
    CP3 was a superior phenom and actually gave new life to the franchise that drafted him. At age 20 he had one of the best rookie seasons of the modern era and had his team in the playoffs by 22. Alternatively, Kidd was co-ROY at 21 and toiled away for 2 years on a dysfunctional Dallas team that missed the playoffs all 2.5 of his seasons there.

    He landed in Phoenix where they would make the playoffs 5 years straight, starting at age 23 but he didn't truly enter his prime until age 25 when all the other PG's on the team aged out. He began to assert his will on the game more and did what most playmaking prospects do as they age, they begin to cut down on the turnover%. CP3 never had to learn that, tho thats in part due to a technical weakness in his game.

    In that 5 year stretch Kidd's Suns suffered the following defeats.

    1-3 to the Spurs with Kidd shooting 38% for the series and 4-16 in the final game. Understandable given the talent differential but I gotta watch the tape to see how Avery Johnson averaged 20.

    An 0-3 to the JailBlazers in 99, a series where Kidd averaged 15-10, least he upped his efficiency to a whopping 42% from the field and improved upon his 0% 3pt percentage to 25%. Good series, sorta.

    A 1-3 Loss to the Kings with him shooting the now customary 32% from the field.

    The one series the Suns did win came with Kidd sidelined and it was against a team that had just lost Tim Duncan, which if you knew D-Robs history, you'd know he would struggle mightily as the #1 option in the playoffs. That was Anfernees final farewell as an all-star ish player too. They did push the Sonics to an elimination G.5 in the year Kidd was first traded there but he wasn't even his teams best player yet.


    Thats 8 years of nothing coming close to CP3's virginity popping playoff run at 22 years old when he spanked Kidd's *** and pushed the defending champs to 6. The phenom case is closed. What comes next makes the debate worthy...


    CP3 battles injuries for the next few years, has an embarrassing showing vs Denver (injured) but in his final season with the Hornets/Pels, he again pushes the defending champion to 6 games with him just lighting it up with advanced stats that would lead the playoffs if he qualified.
    Admittedly, the matchup was in his favor with an old Fisher as the primary defender and 2 slow footed bigs switching onto him. Still, this was the leagues best defense (upon Bynums return) and his team was severely outmanned as David West was out with injury. It was yet another virtuoso performance in defeat. Much better than the kind of losses Kidd has suffered to this point.

    He comes to the Clippers when he should have been a Laker if not for a smart GM/Commish. He leads the franchise to new heights and has those series vs the Grizz I outlined above.


    Consider that Kidd came in abit younger and was a year younger when he was slapped around by CP3, we were already saying Kidd was done as a star and when he won his ring he was a role player at an age when CP3 was leading his team to the Finals.

    Im sorry but those 2 Finals runs when he never beat a team worthy of note in a ****** conference aren't enough to offset all this. That Spurs team that CP3 bested with that incredible game winner is a better accomplishment than any team Kidd defeated as a star. People discount it because it was in R.1 but thats how tough the West was and it was so unfair the league changed a rule to prevent such a matchup from happening again.
    You're forgetting one of the most important points: Jason Kidd has been the centerpiece of a top 10 league offense literally once throughout his entire prime, in the 99 shortened season with Phoenix. CP3 regularly lead top offenses with the Clippers, including b2b seasons of by far the best offense in the league.

    Can you imagine if CP3 racked up a million assists on bottom feeder offenses like Kidd did? The "empty stats" narrative would never end.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    describe to me in detail what Bob Cousy was better at than Chris Paul on the court
    He was a true PG


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

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