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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    IDK where to stand on this one. On one hand yes, what you're saying about how teams defend him is true, its the best way to have him give up the ball and takes away his pull-up game to a degree. And in a more traditional offense the dude could rack up the dimes, case in point, his first all-star campaign under Mama theregoesdatman, he racked up 8.5 dimes and they wasted alot of possessions posting up Klay back then.

    But at the same time how hes defended is also the best way to pick on a relative weakness offensively, his vision/passing IQ isn't up to sniff with some of the legendary playmakers. That career high in assist came with alot more turnovers and this year he tried to get his team going more as a playmaker only to revert to scoring dominance as the means to impact the game.

    Some of this is just the nature of the beast, the game has done away with traditional PG's mostly but its also kind of a sign that hes got more SG in his game than almost every PG in his peer group.

    Still, he doesn't defend anything above a 1 unless they are weak offensively and hes the size of a PG while more of a liability as a SG, so hes a PG.
    Ya he also guards PG's too, basically everything that you expect a PG to do he does for that team. That's why he has always been listed as their PG and handles all the roles, it's what he is. That he is a better scorer than any other PG in history doesn't change the aspect that he is still a PG that does all the things a PG does and has always been listed as such etc. etc.

    The SG part of his game as far as I can tell is simply being a far better scorer/scores too much even though it's very efficient. This would be the first time I've ever seen that used as an argument against a PG to claim they aren't one.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I think he has pg elements in his game, but I think he looks for his shot too much to be considered a typical pg. I'm not saying that he doesnt make the right play, he does, it just seems to me that he's looking for his shot most of the time, and then gives it up when the defense collapses. He's really an in-between guard but that's not really a category
    It's not just that he has PG elements in his game it's that he has always been one for his team pretty clearly and does all the things a PG does as noted. He looks for his shot more because he is a better scorer. That's the difference. Billups, Kyrie and Lilliard off the top of my head real quick. All of those guys average around or less than the same assists etc. but again Currys does far more with the secondary assists as well when it comes to his playmaking. It's just that he is far superior as a scorer than any of them but they are always listed as PG's too.

    It's almost like him being too good of a scorer is being used to negate that he's the PG in basically every other sense.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It's not just that he has PG elements in his game it's that he has always been one for his team pretty clearly and does all the things a PG does as noted. He looks for his shot more because he is a better scorer. That's the difference. Billups, Kyrie and Lilliard off the top of my head real quick. All of those guys average around or less than the same assists etc. but again Currys does far more with the secondary assists as well when it comes to his playmaking. It's just that he is far superior as a scorer than any of them but they are always listed as PG's too.

    It's almost like him being too good of a scorer is being used to negate that he's the PG in basically every other sense.
    I'm not penalizing him for being too great of a scorer. I think that's what makes him a great player (and of course his shooting, but the two go hand in hand for Curry). But as Chronz noted, Curry isn't great at the things that make a pg great and those he's compared to are great at. For instance, Curry doesn't have great court vision, isn't a great passer, playmaker, or floor general, and doesn't have great court awareness and isn't great at getting others involved and these become more noticeable in the half court. Now that's not to say that he's not good at these, but he's not great at them or at least I don't think he's great at them. Although he does have great ball handling skills.

    What makes Curry great is his shooting ability. If we make Curry an above average shooter he'd be a good player but probably not very special. A lot of the guys we've been discussing are great because of all of those other things they bring. Now to be fair, guys like Kidd weren't good shooters, but take Nash for example, he's an all-time great shooter and if we removed that skill and made him an average shooter, he would still be a great pg because he can do most if not all of those other things that I mentioned at a level that would be considered great or very close to it. Similar with CP3, if he was a below average shooter, he would still be a great pg. If Curry was a below average shooter though, based on his current skillset, he wouldn't be in this conversation. I think Curry's great because of his shooting not because of his pg abilities. To me, Curry being a pg is more of a technicality. He's a great player and a pg, but I think it's debatable whether he's a great pg, because he could just as easily be listed as a sg. Yes, he does what a pg does, but isn't really great at most of those things outside of ball handling. He's good at a lot of those things, but others we've mentioned are better at those things.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not penalizing him for being too great of a scorer. I think that's what makes him a great player (and of course his shooting, but the two go hand in hand for Curry). But as Chronz noted, Curry isn't great at the things that make a pg great and those he's compared to are great at. For instance, Curry doesn't have great court vision, isn't a great passer, playmaker, or floor general, and doesn't have great court awareness and isn't great at getting others involved and these become more noticeable in the half court. Now that's not to say that he's not good at these, but he's not great at them or at least I don't think he's great at them. Although he does have great ball handling skills.

    What makes Curry great is his shooting ability. If we make Curry an above average shooter he'd be a good player but probably not very special. A lot of the guys we've been discussing are great because of all of those other things they bring. Now to be fair, guys like Kidd weren't good shooters, but take Nash for example, he's an all-time great shooter and if we removed that skill and made him an average shooter, he would still be a great pg because he can do most if not all of those other things that I mentioned at a level that would be considered great or very close to it. Similar with CP3, if he was a below average shooter, he would still be a great pg. If Curry was a below average shooter though, based on his current skillset, he wouldn't be in this conversation. I think Curry's great because of his shooting not because of his pg abilities. To me, Curry being a pg is more of a technicality. He's a great player and a pg, but I think it's debatable whether he's a great pg, because he could just as easily be listed as a sg. Yes, he does what a pg does, but isn't really great at most of those things outside of ball handling. He's good at a lot of those things, but others we've mentioned are better at those things.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
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    But all of those things are true. Curry is not great at any of the things I mentioned. His great impact does not come from doing the things that a great pg does...you're also way...WAY off about KG by the way lol
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-22-2021 at 11:23 PM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not penalizing him for being too great of a scorer. I think that's what makes him a great player (and of course his shooting, but the two go hand in hand for Curry). But as Chronz noted, Curry isn't great at the things that make a pg great and those he's compared to are great at. For instance, Curry doesn't have great court vision, isn't a great passer, playmaker, or floor general, and doesn't have great court awareness and isn't great at getting others involved and these become more noticeable in the half court. Now that's not to say that he's not good at these, but he's not great at them or at least I don't think he's great at them. Although he does have great ball handling skills.

    What makes Curry great is his shooting ability. If we make Curry an above average shooter he'd be a good player but probably not very special. A lot of the guys we've been discussing are great because of all of those other things they bring. Now to be fair, guys like Kidd weren't good shooters, but take Nash for example, he's an all-time great shooter and if we removed that skill and made him an average shooter, he would still be a great pg because he can do most if not all of those other things that I mentioned at a level that would be considered great or very close to it. Similar with CP3, if he was a below average shooter, he would still be a great pg. If Curry was a below average shooter though, based on his current skillset, he wouldn't be in this conversation. I think Curry's great because of his shooting not because of his pg abilities. To me, Curry being a pg is more of a technicality. He's a great player and a pg, but I think it's debatable whether he's a great pg, because he could just as easily be listed as a sg. Yes, he does what a pg does, but isn't really great at most of those things outside of ball handling. He's good at a lot of those things, but others we've mentioned are better at those things.
    Wow, I guess we really disagree about those factors for Curry. Again I don't think Lilliard or Kyrie are any better in these areas yet are always listed as PG as well. The idea he is so much worse than them that he isn't even the same position is just way too far for me to take seriously. I have no idea how he has so many assists and secondary assists in comparison without having the ability to do these things.

    His shooting ability is what separates him from others but his all around ability to do the things you just listed that he supposedly can't are actually part of what make him so great. He isn't Kyle Korver with a handle and better shot. He's a PG who runs the offense and always has in the NBA basically. I don't think those guys would be nearly as good PG's without their shooting either, you seem to be saying because you don't consider him all time in these aspects he somehow isn't still a PG. It doesn't really make sense to me at all.

    Curry being a PG is a reality. It's what he should be given his overall skillset. His shooting would allow him to play SG sure but it's the rest of his game that makes him clearly a PG (and why he has been so for his teams). I dunno, I guess we drastically drastically disagree on his overall abilities. I don't think he is worse than Kyrie etc. at all in these aspects.

  7. #157
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    This thread got pretty yikey. Jeez.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Wow, I guess we really disagree about those factors for Curry. Again I don't think Lilliard or Kyrie are any better in these areas yet are always listed as PG as well. The idea he is so much worse than them that he isn't even the same position is just way too far for me to take seriously. I have no idea how he has so many assists and secondary assists in comparison without having the ability to do these things.

    His shooting ability is what separates him from others but his all around ability to do the things you just listed that he supposedly can't are actually part of what make him so great. He isn't Kyle Korver with a handle and better shot. He's a PG who runs the offense and always has in the NBA basically. I don't think those guys would be nearly as good PG's without their shooting either, you seem to be saying because you don't consider him all time in these aspects he somehow isn't still a PG. It doesn't really make sense to me at all.

    Curry being a PG is a reality. It's what he should be given his overall skillset. His shooting would allow him to play SG sure but it's the rest of his game that makes him clearly a PG (and why he has been so for his teams). I dunno, I guess we drastically drastically disagree on his overall abilities. I don't think he is worse than Kyrie etc. at all in these aspects.
    Well I'm not sure we disagree about Kyrie, Dame, and Curry as pgs. I don't think Kyrie or Dame are great pgs either though. I think Kyrie and Dame are better players than they are pgs (similar to Curry in that regard I suppose, although curry is a better player than either). I suppose I agree with you that Curry does what pgs do, but I guess where we differ is that I don't think he's great at most of those things and being able to do those things aren't what makes him great, whereas I think guys like CP3 and Stockton are great because they do/did those things at a great level and I think Curry is great because of his great shooting ability (although I think he is good at a lot of those things and those attributes add to his game for sure). Mind you, I'm using pg in the more traditional sense. The role of the pg has changed quite substantially in the past decade though to the point where it's basically a sg that handles the ball more. I suppose for that reason I don't really consider players who play like that true pgs, but that's more of a purest perspective and maybe not one that some might agree with.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-22-2021 at 11:41 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well I'm not sure we disagree about Kyrie, Dame, and Curry as pgs. I don't think Kyrie or Dame are great pgs either though. I think Kyrie and Dame are better players than they are pgs (similar to Curry in that regard I suppose, although curry is a better player than either). I suppose I agree with you that Curry does what pgs do, but I guess where we differ is that I don't think he's great at most of those things and being able to do those things aren't what makes him great, whereas I think guys like CP3 and Stockton are great because they do/did those things at a great level and I think Curry is great because of his great shooting ability (although I think he is good at a lot of those things and those attributes add to his game for sure). Mind you, I'm using pg in the more traditional sense. The role of the pg has changed quite substantially in the past decade though to the point where it's basically a sg that handles the ball more. I suppose for that reason I don't really consider players who play like that true pgs, but that's more of a purest perspective and maybe not one that some might agree with.
    He is obviously different and not necessarily an all time passer like Stockton. However if Stockton were as good of a scorer he would have sacrificed some of that playmaking for more scoring imo even if still one of best passers ever it gets used less. It's just what should be done when you are so elite at it like Curry is. The point is simply that he is very clearly a PG and basically always has been in the NBA by almost any standard normally applied. The difference is that he is all time good at scoring/shooting while his playmaking/passing etc. aren't that good (but still very good for a PG even if not Stockton level) so get put on the backburner some. He still makes the right play for the offense/team clearly even while catering to this skill though, it's just that the skill he is catering to he's better at than everyone else.

    If the idea is we judge PG's in that traditional sense no matter what that other argument is moot, Stockton is the better PG in that sense over Thomas. That isn't really how these normally go though when ranking PG's, you just rank the better overall player higher so long as they played the position.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 07-22-2021 at 11:53 PM.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    He is obviously different and not necessarily an all time passer like Stockton. However if Stockton were as good of a scorer he would have sacrificed some of that playmaking for more scoring imo even if still one of best passers ever it gets used less. It's just what should be done when you are so elite at it like Curry is. The point is simply that he is very clearly a PG and basically always has been in the NBA by almost any standard normally applied. The difference is that he is all time good at scoring/shooting while his playmaking/passing etc. aren't that good (but still very good for a PG even if not Stockton level) so get put on the backburner some. He still makes the right play for the offense/team clearly even while catering to this skill though, it's just that the skill he is catering to he's better at than everyone else.

    If the idea is we judge PG's in that traditional sense no matter what that other argument is moot, Stockton is the better PG in that sense over Thomas. That isn't really how these normally go though when ranking PG's, you just rank the better overall player higher so long as they played the position.
    That's a fair point. I am more speaking to the more traditional sense of a pg. I agree with you guys that Curry is a better player than IT

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    That's a fair point. I am more speaking to the more traditional sense of a pg. I agree with you guys that Curry is a better player than IT
    You actually did include Curry looking back to beginning of thread lol so I guess you maybe were latching onto someone else's argument and got carried away or something. His shooting/scoring is definitely what makes him the most unique though. I do get that Curry is less of a traditional PG, he just also still is pretty clearly a PG by almost every measure normally used for players (with that unique ability added on).

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You actually did include Curry looking back to beginning of thread lol so I guess you maybe were latching onto someone else's argument and got carried away or something. His shooting/scoring is definitely what makes him the most unique though. I do get that Curry is less of a traditional PG, he just also still is pretty clearly a PG by almost every measure normally used for players (with that unique ability added on).
    Yeah, I think intuitively I was basing it on both how great of a player each guy was and how well they fit the role of the position. I think I had Curry behind IT as a pg because of this second aspect I mentioned, but Curry is the better player.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    They still wouldnít be able to guard him. They would still be stretching there defenses in a crazy way like Shaq but at the 3 OT line and he would create ridiculous and unlimited open opportunities for his teamates. Thatís why he will always be better because of the way he makes a defense act when heís on the court...just like Shaq does...accept he is a much better passer than Shaq so people will actually get more open shots with Curryís gravity
    I'm not saying he wouldn't be great, but the idea that teams didn't have scouting, or wouldn't change up their game plans to deal with him and wouldn't strategize around him is silly.
    He'd be great in any era. But he would have more trouble in an era with hand checking and more physical play.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    I'm not saying he wouldn't be great, but the idea that teams didn't have scouting, or wouldn't change up their game plans to deal with him and wouldn't strategize around him is silly.
    He'd be great in any era. But he would have more trouble in an era with hand checking and more physical play.
    If they arenít doubling him at half court anymore but are hand checking, Iíll take that instead if Iím Curry. Also his ability to draw fouls against guys playing physical would double. Heís still got a top 10 prob top 5 handle ever so I think he dominates harder in every era before this one

  15. #165
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    i would take prime cp3 any and every day. Are people finally over the stupid notion he is a playoff choker or holding not having a ring against him? He plays out of his mind in the playoffs

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