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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    That was arguably the hardest championship.

    Weird *** bubble, locked away from friends and family for months? Give me a break man.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    I'm a lakers fan, and that tourny obviously benefited the lakers as an older veteran team with lots of players that have injury histories and durability concerns.
    I'm glad the lakers won, that was awesome, but it was still a weird-*** bubble tourny.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Stockton also played 19 seasons so we can say he had better longevity. He did play 6 more seasons. But the reason we’re talking Championships was because we were comparing who Isiah went up against. The reasoning you gave as to why the Pistons won a couple ships was that Jordan didn’t have a squad yet, or that Bird was declining, and that Magics team was in a back slide at that point and all’s I’m saying is that the Jazz had the same window of opportunity at that time.

    the biggest criticism of Stockton & Malone was they simply couldn’t go all the way and that to me does effect their legacy because again they didn’t have a shortage in talent and certainly had a world class coaching staff. When teams don’t win it generally always falls on the shoulders of the super stars on that team.

    If we’re talking peak prime, I’m taking Thomas personally. I also think if you swap out Thomas with Stockton that maybe the Jazz would have won one but there’s no way for me to prove that. So it’s a moot point.
    By that same token, if you swap out Thomas and Stockton, maybe the Jazz win 3 in a row (beat the lakers) who knows what would have happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    It takes a certain amount of luck for any team to win. First and for most luck with injuries.

    What crewfan meant by luck was that when the Pistons won their back to back ships, it was in a time where Jordan didn’t have Pippen yet, and that Bird was declining, and that Magics Lakers were declining etc. My response was to that specific post. You’ve taken it to a whole different place lol

    But I disagree, because the bubble ship was a grind to win. It wasn’t easy for the players to be there so we gotta give the Lakers their due for that ring.

    Also who said Giannis got lucky? He earned his.
    I'm a lakers fan, I'm glad they won.
    But taking several months off before immediately entering that tournament was obviously going to benefit an older veteran team with injury history and durability concerns, than a younger more dynamic team.
    This situation was very fortuitous for the lakers. That said, you have to capitalize on good fortune, and they did.

    Crewfan more or less did.
    And yes, he got a little lucky that KD's toe was on that line, half an inch back and KD hits a series-winning 3 to end the game, which would go down as one of the clutchest shots ever (along with Leonard's) but instead, it was just a great game-tying shot and Giannis is the champ.
    I'm probably going to piss off alot of fan bases here, but it happens alot. The rockets got lucky that Jordan retired. Dallas got lucky their best year came in year 1 of the Heatles. If that team had been together for 2 years and had chemistry, they probably beat Dallas. Toronto got lucky they got kawhi in a LeBron transition year where the wagon that was GS got hurt. Whoever wins this year is lucky they got the real year 1 for the Nets and also that the Nets got hurt.
    Last edited by ciaban2.0; 07-21-2021 at 09:38 PM.

  3. #108
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    Honestly, I understand this is a debate about IT vs Stockton, but your all doing those piston's teams dirty, they were incredibly special, especially on defense, they were probably one of the best defensive teams of all time until the 03-04 pistons.

    IDK if any of you guys are familiar with Clayton Crowly, but he does great work on Basketball.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAK8_dOW1Sk

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Stockton also played 19 seasons so we can say he had better longevity. He did play 6 more seasons. But the reason we’re talking Championships was because we were comparing who Isiah went up against. The reasoning you gave as to why the Pistons won a couple ships was that Jordan didn’t have a squad yet, or that Bird was declining, and that Magics team was in a back slide at that point and all’s I’m saying is that the Jazz had the same window of opportunity at that time.

    the biggest criticism of Stockton & Malone was they simply couldn’t go all the way and that to me does effect their legacy because again they didn’t have a shortage in talent and certainly had a world class coaching staff. When teams don’t win it generally always falls on the shoulders of the super stars on that team.

    If we’re talking peak prime, I’m taking Thomas personally. I also think if you swap out Thomas with Stockton that maybe the Jazz would have won one but there’s no way for me to prove that. So it’s a moot point.
    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Stockton was drafted in 1984, Thomas was drafted in 1981. They had a very similar window of competing for a title. Only Stockton had a longer career so he def had more window. Thomas played 13 seasons, Stockton played 19 seasons.

    They had to compete against similar competition. Isiah & the Pistons won in 89&90. Stockton was drafted in 84 & Malone was drafted in 85. By 89-90 both player were developed and ready to compete. The dynasty Bulls hadn't been formed yet and Bird was on the decline, while Magics Lakers were on the back slide. So that was a window where Stockton and Malone could have gone all the way. Their next chance was when Jordan left the league, at that point it was once again wide open and Stockton & Malone could have won then too, only they didn't. Houston to back to back titles.

    So even if we take Magic, Jordan, and Bird out of the equation, Stockton and Malone had ample opportunity to win, they just came up short. But Thomas and the Pistons were able to get theirs in that window. again these guys all played in similar eras.

    So yeah, I absolutely think not winning a ring effects Stockton & Malones legacy. They had a great supporting cast, they were well coached, and they were super stars. Crew fan made the case that the Pistons only won because the Bulls hadn't built a winner around Jordan yet, Bird was on the decline, and Magic while he was in his prime, his team was on the back slide. My counter to that was well Utah had the same opportunity to win as Detroit did only they came up short. That's the full context of the conversation you jumped in to my man.

    We were specifically talking about the competition they were going up against. Im simply saying the Jazz had the same window of opportunity that the Pistons had, only they neve went all the way. In fact I would argue that Stockton had Malone while the best player Isiah Thomas played with was Dumars. It goes with out saying Malone was on a different tier than Dumars. So I would even say Stockton had more help. Malone was an absolute monster.
    Detroit was a MUCH better team, not just defensively, but their bench too. They had 6 players average in the double digits for points, with Rodman at 9 per game.
    Their bench was LOADED with all-stars.
    That team had 3 Hall of Famers, including maybe the best pound-for-pound defender and rebounder in league history, and another guy in Lambier, who frankly was the most statistically productive of them all, and should be in the hall of fame but isn't because he's an A-Hole.

    The Jazz never had that.
    And when they lost to the rockets. They lost to one of the greatest big men ever, and a team with hall of Famer Clyde Drexler.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Magic was still in his prime. Bird had already started to have the back issues and Jordan wasn’t quite in his prime yet but was ascending fast.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Weird to include magic on that list since magic missed the entire series (otherwise that's 4-0 lakers).

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Weird to include magic on that list since magic missed the entire series (otherwise that's 4-0 lakers).
    Ik Magic wasn't 100% but pretty sure he played 3 of the 4 games.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I agree with both points, that Curry is the better player and that he had more surrounding talent.
    I think it's a different question though as to whether Curry is a better player and whether he is the better pg. I think IT was a better pg and I think Stockton and Kidd were also better pgs than Curry even though I think Curry is better than them as a player (although I think Curry is a liability defensively and I think his impact would notably drop under the old rules).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-22-2021 at 12:05 AM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Ik Magic wasn't 100% but pretty sure he played 3 of the 4 games.
    You're technically correct, but it's more of a technicality. Magic only played 29 minutes in Game 2 because he got hurt (I think) and then only played 5 minutes in Game 3. I doubt that the pistons win Games 2-4 if not for the injury. I was wrong though because I was thinking Magic missed all 4 games.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 07-22-2021 at 12:03 AM.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I think it's a different question though as to whether Curry is a better player and whether he is the better pg. I think IT was a better pg and I think Stockton and Kidd were also better pgs than Curry even though I think Curry is better than them as a player (although I think Curry is a liability defensively and I think his impact would notably drop under the old rules).
    It might be but honestly either way Curry is the clear as day playmaker and focal point while doing almost everything a PG normally does. He not only averaged 6.5 assists (same as Dame referenced earlier, slightly above in per 36 or per 100 poss) but he also often leads the league in secondary assists. Teams literally will leave 3 v 4 in halfcourt to pressure him 5 feet behind the 3 pt line. That's not a knock on Currys ability to be the playmaker, it's the smart play for any floor leader when the defense goes to such insane extremes just to stop you. It makes that "secondary assist" often an extremely easy play/read for whoever it is that gets the ball. I mean if they are wide and it's klay, shoot. If it's dray and someone comes into the lane to stop you from easy dunk, pass it out. It's all set up/created by Curry, even when KD was there he would get iso's on other teams worst players because of how teams defended Curry/the offense developed around him. It might not be quite as traditional but that in part is due to his incredible skillset overall/shooting ability not because he isn't running the offense/team as the pg.

    His tracking data also shows very similar to other PG's as well, like Kyrie. He is a bit more of a scoring PG sure given his elite skillset but that doesn't change he's the clear pg/playmaker for that team and the offense is built around his ability to create (whether directly with his assists or indirectly by taking extreme attention of the defense and making right play leading to often top or near top in secondary assists).

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I think it's a different question though as to whether Curry is a better player and whether he is the better pg. I think IT was a better pg and I think Stockton and Kidd were also better pgs than Curry even though I think Curry is better than them as a player (although I think Curry is a liability defensively and I think his impact would notably drop under the old rules).
    Even then Curry is a better PG. Curry has lead better offenses than any of those players ever have and did it consistently. And IT is also a liability defensively, he fortunately played on a stacked defensive team which hid his deficiencies on that end. And even if Curry’s impact dropped notably he’d still be better because Curry’s impact relative to IT, Stockton and Kidd is massive. That being said, the only old rules his impact would noticeably drop under would be pre 3-point line. After that his impact will always be enormous. He has one of the the fastest releases in NBA history (clocked to between .4 and .6 seconds). He’d be able to get up plenty of 3’s even in the hand check era, not to mention nobody in the 80’s would even guard him appropriately beyond the 3-point line because the idea of having to guard a guy against shooting feet away from the 3-point line hadn’t even crossed anyone’s mind at that point.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    you’re the one that said the Pistons only won because Bird was declining, and that Jordan didn’t have a squad around him yet, and that Magic was in his prime but the Lakers were back sliding.

    My response simply to that was, well the Jazz had the same window of opportunity.

    Now your saying let’s not talk about the teams and just compare the players. But I think it matters that Stockton had Malone who was way better than anyone Isiah played with. Way, wayyy better.
    Sure Malone was the best player either guy played with. But who were the best players beyond that. Adrian Dantley is on the list somewhere, but let's not count him since both guys had a brief period with him. So outside Malone, if we just look at totla all star games as a quick check, the next best guys were dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman and Agguirre. There's no arguement that those bad boy Pistons teams as a whole were worse than the Jazz teams despite Malone being better than anyone else on those rosters. It's possible the teams as a whole were close, but there's no argument that those Pistons were a worse supporting cast when comparing Stockton and Isiah.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Intangibles are just such a weak argument to me. It's basically admitting there's nothing I can say that proves my guy is better, so I'm going to use stuff that's impossible to quantify. What we can quantify are stats, which Stockton leads in. Other things we can use as support evidence are stuff like, Mvps, all nba teams, all defensive teams and that type of stuff, which indicates what those who cover the league thought of those players at the time. And Stockton seems to have a pretty clear lead in that too. If those were close, then the intangibles stuff makes sense. It's a good tiebreaker. But to me, in this case, there doesn't appear to be a tie that needs breaking.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Even then Curry is a better PG. Curry has lead better offenses than any of those players ever have and did it consistently. And IT is also a liability defensively, he fortunately played on a stacked defensive team which hid his deficiencies on that end. And even if Curry’s impact dropped notably he’d still be better because Curry’s impact relative to IT, Stockton and Kidd is massive. That being said, the only old rules his impact would noticeably drop under would be pre 3-point line. After that his impact will always be enormous. He has one of the the fastest releases in NBA history (clocked to between .4 and .6 seconds). He’d be able to get up plenty of 3’s even in the hand check era, not to mention nobody in the 80’s would even guard him appropriately beyond the 3-point line because the idea of having to guard a guy against shooting feet away from the 3-point line hadn’t even crossed anyone’s mind at that point.
    The idea that no one would guard him because no one thought to guard someone several feet away from the 3 point line wouldn't last, do you really think he'd go season after season with NO ONE guarding him? It didn't happen in this era, it wouldn't have happened then either. The first team in the 80's he'd at would start doing it in the second half of that game, no team of any era just let's guys go permanently unguarded.

    Hed still be great but the novelty and surpris factor of his 3's wouldn't astros long.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    By that same token, if you swap out Thomas and Stockton, maybe the Jazz win 3 in a row (beat the lakers) who knows what would have happened.

    I'm a lakers fan, I'm glad they won.
    But taking several months off before immediately entering that tournament was obviously going to benefit an older veteran team with injury history and durability concerns, than a younger more dynamic team.
    This situation was very fortuitous for the lakers. That said, you have to capitalize on good fortune, and they did.

    Crewfan more or less did.
    And yes, he got a little lucky that KD's toe was on that line, half an inch back and KD hits a series-winning 3 to end the game, which would go down as one of the clutchest shots ever (along with Leonard's) but instead, it was just a great game-tying shot and Giannis is the champ.
    If Stockton couldn’t win with Karl Malone what makes you think he could with Joe Dumars lol

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    If Stockton couldn’t win with Karl Malone what makes you think he could with Joe Dumars lol
    Because like everyone has said, it's not Malone vs dumars. It's Malone and a bunch of okay but rarely even all star level guys vs Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman and so on. If we take off the PGs and compare the rosters the years detriot won, Malone is the best player and then Detriot has probably the next 4 best players and quite possibly 5 of the 7 next best players.

    I mean, even if you compare the best Jazz squads, Malone is the best player and it's still Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman as the next 3 best players. And there's still an argument that Mark Aguirre is the 4th best of the bunch.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    The idea that no one would guard him because no one thought to guard someone several feet away from the 3 point line wouldn't last, do you really think he'd go season after season with NO ONE guarding him? It didn't happen in this era, it wouldn't have happened then either. The first team in the 80's he'd at would start doing it in the second half of that game, no team of any era just let's guys go permanently unguarded.

    Hed still be great but the novelty and surpris factor of his 3's wouldn't astros long.
    Yes they’d adjust, but that just speaks to how good he is that he’d literally alter how defenses in the 80’s played. And yes the novelty wore off in today’s NBA as defenses adjusted, and all he did in that tome was win 2 MVPs, 1 being the only unanimous one on history, 3 Titles, 2 scoring titles, and rewrote the record book on 3’s.

    He literally came off a season ending injury and led the league in PPG. He’d do extremely well in any era.

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