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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    You can call something you do wrong whatever helps you sleep at night, and I'll do the same.
    Still feels overly sensitive to me while at the same time non-religious people tend to act like the religious are the oversensitive ones, but OK.
    SiteWolf, you are a reasonable and even-handed guy generally, but it is disingenuous on your part to say that the concept of sin vis a vis doing wrong things is just semantics.

    Sin is a by and large a religious concept, and for sure your use of it in the post I quoted was fundamentally religious.

    I donít particularly care about this point other than to observe that believers are just as prone to making pre-emptive statements (as in this is the factual truth of things) as I am when I say, for example, that your God has no objective reality.

    It is a two-way street.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    You can call something you do wrong whatever helps you sleep at night, and I'll do the same.
    Still feels overly sensitive to me while at the same time non-religious people tend to act like the religious are the oversensitive ones, but OK.
    Point Iíd like to make is I donít appreciate being called a sinner based on your beliefs of a God. You want to say youíre a sinner, fine. But leave me out of it. I donít appreciate the name calling.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    SiteWolf, you are a reasonable and even-handed guy generally, but it is disingenuous on your part to say that the concept of sin vis a vis doing wrong things is just semantics.

    Sin is a by and large a religious concept, and for sure your use of it in the post I quoted was fundamentally religious.

    I donít particularly care about this point other than to observe that believers are just as prone to making pre-emptive statements (as in this is the factual truth of things) as I am when I say, for example, that your God has no objective reality.

    It is a two-way street.
    I didn't ask anyone to agree with the concept of sin. I asked if you felt people were perfect, because you said they weren't all sinners. That was a probe for your perception of the word, not a push to agree with it. My gawd, my beliefs have been attacked in here regularly and you feel that warrants a defensive reaction? That also is a two way street.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Point Iíd like to make is I donít appreciate being called a sinner based on your beliefs of a God. You want to say youíre a sinner, fine. But leave me out of it. I donít appreciate the name calling.
    Never in a million years did I perceive saying the proverbial 'we all', not anyone specifically, a sinner would be taken personally AND as name calling. If my belief is that we're all sinners, that includes myself and everyone I love. I didn't use the word specifically/individually towards you or anyone else. To be denigrating, I'd have to use a name that inferred a person was below me somehow, but I'm a sinner, too.

    I'd like you to think about some of the words that have been used regarding my beliefs and tell me if you're still feeling bad about it.

    Imagine that, using religious terms in a religious discussion on a religion forum....weird!
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Never in a million years did I perceive saying the proverbial 'we all', not anyone specifically, a sinner would be taken personally AND as name calling. If my belief is that we're all sinners, that includes myself and everyone I love. I didn't use the word specifically/individually towards you or anyone else. To be denigrating, I'd have to use a name that inferred a person was below me somehow, but I'm a sinner, too.

    I'd like you to think about some of the words that have been used regarding my beliefs and tell me if you're still feeling bad about it.

    Imagine that, using religious terms in a religious discussion on a religion forum....weird!
    Donít call me a sinner. This imperfect man doesnít sin.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I didn't ask anyone to agree with the concept of sin. I asked if you felt people were perfect, because you said they weren't all sinners. That was a probe for your perception of the word, not a push to agree with it. My gawd, my beliefs have been attacked in here regularly...
    How is it possible that you missed this point? Take you blinders off and read my post. Your statement about sinners was presented as a truth ó deny it and I will firmly reject your denial. I was simply pointing it out as an example of your doing the exact same thing you whine about all the time (see above bolded).

    When you say all humans are sinners, you are de facto calling me a sinner (which I am not). I could construe this as an attack. But I donít. I call it an erroneous statement, and the springboard for a counter ó which you will probably take as an attack. So be it.

    By the way, I admit I have done some bad things in my life, but that does not make me a bad person.

  7. #22
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    I say all humans are sinners because, from a Christian standpoint, all humans are sinners.

    But fine if the word is that egregious to the two of you I'll just refer to you as imperfect. Better?

    Understand, too, when I say attacked...I mean this is still a few people who will likely never meet personally having discussions by means of a forum on a sports site.....who quite likely could still have an enjoyable time getting together for a beer if they ever DID meet..and just stayed away from topics like this.

    and for the record, even from a Christian standpoint, we all know we've done bad things and will continue to, most of us just don't do most of those bad things intentionally.....and we (Christians) just understand we'll have to answer for them eventually...........so we aren't necessarily viewing people, including ourselves, as bad people
    Last edited by SiteWolf; 07-26-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I say all humans are sinners because, from a Christian standpoint, all humans are sinners.

    But fine if the word is that egregious to the two of you I'll just refer to you as imperfect. Better?

    Understand, too, when I say attacked...I mean this is still a few people who will likely never meet personally having discussions by means of a forum on a sports site.....who quite likely could still have an enjoyable time getting together for a beer if they ever DID meet..and just stayed away from topics like this.

    and for the record, even from a Christian standpoint, we all know we've done bad things and will continue to, most of us just don't do most of those bad things intentionally.....and we (Christians) just understand we'll have to answer for them eventually...........so we aren't necessarily viewing people, including ourselves, as bad people
    I've yet to meet someone who is perfect. I think everyone is imperfect. I'm perfectly (lol, yes, ironic) fine with leaving it at that.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears Ė but they seem kinda sensible...."

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I've yet to meet someone who is perfect. I think everyone is imperfect. I'm perfectly (lol, yes, ironic) fine with leaving it at that.
    I have a saying I use when I'm admitting to a mistake or if someone calls me on something.
    "If I was perfect, I wouldn't still be here."
    (which I realize doesn't work nearly as well for a non-believer)
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I say all humans are sinners because, from a Christian standpoint, all humans are sinners. But fine if the word is that egregious to the two of you I'll just refer to you as imperfect. Better?
    To be honest, not really. Perfect? Seriously, what does that even mean, much less how is it relevant for those of us who live out our lives on this earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I've yet to meet someone who is perfect. I think everyone is imperfect. I'm perfectly (lol, yes, ironic) fine with leaving it at that.
    In light of the above, I disagree.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I have a saying I use when I'm admitting to a mistake or if someone calls me on something.
    "If I was perfect, I wouldn't still be here."
    (which I realize doesn't work nearly as well for a non-believer)
    Lol I think that works perfectly for both of us! Good job!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I have a saying I use when I'm admitting to a mistake or if someone calls me on something.
    "If I was perfect, I wouldn't still be here."
    (which I realize doesn't work nearly as well for a non-believer)
    My guess is that if you were perfect, you would never have been here in the first place; perfection is an ideal, and one that has no place in this here material world.

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