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  1. #2131
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    America’s Afghanistan Amnesia
    To scapegoat Joe Biden, the national security establishment covered up two decades of lies.


    The American national security establishment has little aptitude for winning wars, but it is very good at defending its political power. The swift collapse of the Afghan government in August, with the leaders like Afghanistan President Ashraf Ghani fleeing as its army surrendered to the Taliban, should have been an occasion for soul-searching among Americans leaders. After all, building a viable, non-Taliban government in Afghanistan has been a project carried out by four presidencies over nearly 20 years, at the cost of more than $2 trillion and nearly 2,500 soldiers. The number of Afghans who died in the war of the last two decades is difficult to establish with certainty, but best estimates are in the neighborhood of 240,000—with perhaps 70,000 of those civilians.

    By any measure, the effort to create a viable Afghan state was a major political project, supported not just by a bipartisan political consensus but also numerous NGOs and, intermittently, aided by American allies. Yet the Afghan government was revealed in the end to be a Potemkin regime, one that fell apart almost as fast as a house of cards encountering a gust of wind.

    You would think that so massive a failure—one that implicated so many leaders and institutions—might lead to some reflection on all that had gone wrong. But such a level of mature introspection isn’t common to the national security establishment. This clubby collection of military and civilian policy-makers, think tank wonks, and upscale journalists is sometimes called “the Blob.” (The term was popularized, if not coined, by Ben Rhodes, an adviser to Barack Obama). It’s an apt metaphor; like the fabled movie monster, the foreign policy Blob may look amorphous—but still always oozes in the same general direction.

    Continue reading: https://www.thenation.com/article/po...an-biden-blob/
    All facts. We as Americans are allergic to learning from our mistakes, but I hope that the "I support the withdrawal just not how it was done" crowd really does support ending it, and is supportive of it because there has been some sort of reflection or reconciliation. A realization of how disastrous the post-9/11 era of American imperialism has been. And a desire to not repeat the same mistakes.
    HELLO

  2. #2132
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Leaving was the right decision. The withdrawal was a total failure, however. We have people that were unable to make it to the airport to get out. We left entirely too much equipment in country. We failed to utilize our biggest asset in country -- Bagram airbase.
    Overall, I am happy that the situation is over. The time to leave was once we neutralized bin Laden. Not sure why we stayed after that, but the decision was not mine to make.
    In part it’s because everyone knew this would happen when we left and nobody wanted to be stuck holding that bag.

  3. #2133
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    America’s Afghanistan Amnesia
    To scapegoat Joe Biden, the national security establishment covered up two decades of lies.




    All facts. We as Americans are allergic to learning from our mistakes, but I hope that the "I support the withdrawal just not how it was done" crowd really does support ending it, and is supportive of it because there has been some sort of reflection or reconciliation. A realization of how disastrous the post-9/11 era of American imperialism has been. And a desire to not repeat the same mistakes.
    Don’t hold your breath. We are a country of gun-crazy yahoos, and we will continue to ignore those post-9/11 blunders even more quickly than we did after Vietnam.

  4. #2134
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    In part it’s because everyone knew this would happen when we left and nobody wanted to be stuck holding that bag.
    There was a way to do this in an orderly, proper way. Biden's withdrawal was neither orderly or proper. The military abandoned Bagram airbase in the middle of the night, simply shutting off the power around 3AM and locking the gates. As I have said, it would have been far easier to have used this base as our hub to get our people and equipment out. The base could have either been turned over or made useless by dropping a few well-placed bombs on it.
    Reliance on planes from a commercial airport was foolish and the cause of much of the confusion and the problems that we have seen.

  5. #2135
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    There was a way to do this in an orderly, proper way. Biden's withdrawal was neither orderly or proper. The military abandoned Bagram airbase in the middle of the night, simply shutting off the power around 3AM and locking the gates. As I have said, it would have been far easier to have used this base as our hub to get our people and equipment out. The base could have either been turned over or made useless by dropping a few well-placed bombs on it.
    Reliance on planes from a commercial airport was foolish and the cause of much of the confusion and the problems that we have seen.
    There was a way to do this in a more orderly and proper way, but it was never going to go off as perfectly as you envision.

    As for Bagram, I’ve already pointed this out but that wouldn’t have solved the entire problem because many of the people and equipment were not originally to be evacuated. They were to stay in Afghanistan to assist the Afghan government. Those people and equipment would have always been stuck regardless of what airport we chose to leave from.

  6. #2136
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    True, but to rely on an urban airport as our hub was foolish. We controlled access to Bagram and would have been able to get people out in a more organized manner.
    As it turns out, the Afghan "government" was nothing to be concerned about and Biden should have realized that early on. His discussions should have been with the Taliban (with invitation to the Afghani governmental officials) for an orderly transfer of control of assets.
    Biden failed to understand the gravity of the situation until things spiraled out of control and it was total chaos.

  7. #2137
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    True, but to rely on an urban airport as our hub was foolish. We controlled access to Bagram and would have been able to get people out in a more organized manner.
    As it turns out, the Afghan "government" was nothing to be concerned about and Biden should have realized that early on. His discussions should have been with the Taliban (with invitation to the Afghani governmental officials) for an orderly transfer of control of assets.
    Biden failed to understand the gravity of the situation until things spiraled out of control and it was total chaos.
    I don't think Biden failed to understand the gravity of the situation; everyone did.

  8. #2138
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    https://twitter.com/jasonscampbell/s...690154497?s=21


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #2139
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I don't think Biden failed to understand the gravity of the situation; everyone did.
    Biden assumed that the Afghan military would fight for their country. They did not. Perhaps, as some reports say, they refused to fight because they hadn't been paid, perhaps they simply decided it wasn't worth the effort.

  10. #2140
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Not actually visiting the border and insulting the leaders of the Central American countries during her "visit". She was asked not to come back.
    Good enough?
    Lol. No.

    So heres your argunent laid out.

    Kamala Harris broke the border by not visiting it and insulting Centeral American leaders.

    Thats really dumb.

  11. #2141
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Biden assumed that the Afghan military would fight for their country. They did not. Perhaps, as some reports say, they refused to fight because they hadn't been paid, perhaps they simply decided it wasn't worth the effort.
    Ive laid out a very logical account for the events and how I think they unfolded. I think Biden was very aware that Afghanistan was going to let the Taliban take over to avoid another civil war.

    I think Trump tried to lay a political trap for Biden and it somewhat worked.

    Anyways its really funny how you guys seem to just want rhetoric as far as the border is concerned. And have no interest in results.

    But its tiring debating the same tyoe of hollow... vapid points. No proof. Not even attempting to fund a causal link to any of this.

    Just blatant rhetoric spewing.

    Just like the wall. You dont care if it works. Its a feelings argument. All your arguments are based on how you feel.

  12. #2142
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Lol. No.

    So heres your argunent laid out.

    Kamala Harris broke the border by not visiting it and insulting Centeral American leaders.

    Thats really dumb.
    So is she. She refuses to talk about her role as border "czar". I doubt if she understands it.
    Given the choice between her and Mike Pence, I would choose Mike Pence. He has some understanding of foreign policy. Given the choice between her and Val Demmings, I would choose Val Demmings (I would choose her over Biden). She is an impressive person.
    Kamala Harris is a huge part of Biden's problem because no one can take her seriously. She does not appear to take her job seriously.

  13. #2143
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    Pence!

  14. #2144
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Biden assumed that the Afghan military would fight for their country. They did not. Perhaps, as some reports say, they refused to fight because they hadn't been paid, perhaps they simply decided it wasn't worth the effort.
    Again, Biden didn't assume the Afghan military would fight; everyone did.

  15. #2145
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    So is she. She refuses to talk about her role as border "czar". I doubt if she understands it.
    Given the choice between her and Mike Pence, I would choose Mike Pence. He has some understanding of foreign policy. Given the choice between her and Val Demmings, I would choose Val Demmings (I would choose her over Biden). She is an impressive person.
    Kamala Harris is a huge part of Biden's problem because no one can take her seriously. She does not appear to take her job seriously.
    Nothing you are saying is providing any clarity to your terrible argument.

    You havent established a causal link to anything Harris has done

    You are reaching conclusions from your own personal bias. Nothing more. You are projecting your feelings of Harris onto everyone. and then assuming that has somehow "broke the border". Whatever that means.

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