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  1. #1501
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I think the thing with Simmons moving forward is that his value shouldn't be gauged through the lens of PPG (really no player should but that's a different convo). It'd be the equivalent of pointing to Draymond's scoring volume and concluding that he's trash. That's just not how he provides value on the court, and it's looking more and more likely that long-term this isn't the way Simmons is going to provide value either.

    Which is honestly sort of a tough pill to swallow considering he was the first overall pick and had such high expectations. At this point though it's clear that his value will stem from his defense and passing, so we should adjust our expectations accordingly. He can't close playoff games, and he can't be expected to shoulder much of a scoring load either.

    There's still a role for him in the league, and if he can find a way to provide off ball value, and develop his passing further out of the short roll, he'll still be a value add for 3.5 quarters come postseason. He's essentially
    a super scuffed Draymond Green at this point. It is what it is.
    I don't disagree with you in the sense that Simmons as a player is much closer to Draymond in terms of what he brings to the game than any other "star" player of recent memory. He's a limited offensive player who is insanely versatile on defense and excels a playmaker. He's a younger Draymond; that's fine.

    But if I might counter as to why we can't really judge him the same as Draymond:

    1. Draymond has never made max money or anything really close to what Simmons makes. At age 25, Draymond was making less than half of what Simmons makes now.

    2. To your point above, Simmons was lauded as this can't-miss, dynamic point guard when he was drafted as a No. 1 overall pick. Draymond has always been who we thought he was, and has actually exceeded those expectations. Simmons was billed as something he's not, and he's being treated poorly based on those unmet expectations. And that's fair, IMO, because...

    3. ... Simmons is a superior athlete to Draymond. To me, there's no excuse for him not to be able to get more buckets a game than he gets right now. If he can average 17/9/8 in a season, why is he only taking four FGA in a Game 7? Also, for Draymond's limitations as a scorer, he's at least a near-average FT shooter (71.7%) and at least capable (albeit not good) of taking and making the occasional jumper.

    4. Draymond never would have been that wide open in a Game 7 around the rim because he's not nearly as athletic as Simmons, but if he was, he would have taken that freaking shot. The man has proven he can step up in big moments. In fact, by most statistical barometers, Draymond has been a better player in the postseason than the regular season, which is rare. Simmons is... not that guy.

    5. Draymond has never done to his franchise was Simmons is doing right now. He may not be likeable to most fans outside of the Bay Area, but he's beloved by those who love the Warriors, and there's never really been a doubt as to where his allegiance lies even if he's gotten into it with the occasional teammate or colleague in the past.

    So I'm fine operating under the assumption moving forward that Simmons is essentially a younger, less likeable, more expensive version of Draymond Green and lowering my expectations slightly to that level. But I'm not going to be impressed or praise that level of production because of all of the points noted above. Simmons can be better and should be better.


  2. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Simmons was lauded as this can't-miss, dynamic point guard when he was drafted as a No. 1 overall pick.
    I want to pick apart at this point for a second. The belief all throughout the draft process was that Simmons was going to be a point forward and he needed to be paired with a point guard who didn't need to have a traditional point guard skill set. The whole "point guard" thing was created when Brett Brown called him the starting point guard after SL where the SL Coach at the time played him as a positionless player. I think that moment started the path of the trajectory of his career.

    If we come out of that SL and Brett said something about still needing a PG, that Ben is a dynamic playmaker who's expected to defend the best player on the opposing team then there will be no issue. I think part of the biggest issue and why Brett Brown said that is he had a very strange aversion to cross covering matchups.

    If you look back to our series against Toronto a few years ago, Ben on Lowry, JJ on FVV, Jimmy on Kawhi, Harris on Embiid on Gasol. Then they would let them switch the crap on it until they got JJ on Kawhi. Rather than play a matchup zone, where you could get Jimmy on Lowry, and JJ shadows FVV, while Harris and Simmons could matchup zone Kawhi by always having Simmons on him on the perimeter. We actually did that a bunch this year with Doc in charge and it's part of the reason Ben was where he was in the DPOY conversation.

  3. #1503
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I think the thing with Simmons moving forward is that his value shouldn't be gauged through the lens of PPG (really no player should but that's a different convo). It'd be the equivalent of pointing to Draymond's scoring volume and concluding that he's trash. That's just not how he provides value on the court, and it's looking more and more likely that long-term this isn't the way Simmons is going to provide value either.

    Which is honestly sort of a tough pill to swallow considering he was the first overall pick and had such high expectations. At this point though it's clear that his value will stem from his defense and passing, so we should adjust our expectations accordingly. He can't close playoff games, and he can't be expected to shoulder much of a scoring load either.

    There's still a role for him in the league, and if he can find a way to provide off ball value, and develop his passing further out of the short roll, he'll still be a value add for 3.5 quarters come postseason. He's essentially
    a super scuffed Draymond Green at this point. It is what it is.
    The reason why the comparison to Green doesn't apply is because:
    1) Green has never made the max. Simmons makes the max.
    2) Green's peak defensive stats are much better than Simmons.
    3) Green is a great leader. Ben provides no leadership at all.

  4. #1504
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    Whether Simmons is like Dray or not, I think most would have expected Dray to go for that layup at 3:30.

  5. #1505
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Whether Simmons is like Dray or not, I think most would have expected Dray to go for that layup at 3:30.
    He knows his role and just plays it to the best of his ability. This is now different coaches later and Simmons seems to still struggle to understand what he's supposed to be doing out there.

  6. #1506
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    The reason why the comparison to Green doesn't apply is because:
    1) Green has never made the max. Simmons makes the max.
    2) Green's peak defensive stats are much better than Simmons.
    3) Green is a great leader. Ben provides no leadership at all.
    Simmons is 25 and not at his NBA peak yet so I donít get the point of #2.


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  7. #1507
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Whether Simmons is like Dray or not, I think most would have expected Dray to go for that layup at 3:30.
    At least kick the guy in the nuts.


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  8. #1508
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    At least kick the guy in the nuts.


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    Remember, those kicks were just how Draymond plays. Until he was threatened with fines and suspensions and then he somehow figured out how to play without kicking out in the general vicinity of wieners.

  9. #1509
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Simmons is 25 and not at his NBA peak yet so I donít get the point of #2.


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    Yes, but at 23 and 24, respectively, he was clearly better defensively than Simmons. If you want to compare them now that he's over 30 it's much closer.

  10. #1510
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I'm sorry. Are we going to pretend like Simmons DIDN'T pass up a wide open dunk to tie the game in a Game 7 with 3:30 left? Or that he took four whole FGA in that game and 14 total combined in the last three games (for a whopping 19 points)? Or that he averaged less than 10 PPG in that series? Or that he averaged less than 9 FGA in the entire postseason this year? Are you honestly that dense, or maybe you've been in a coma since before the playoffs started and just woke up?

    Like you actually just posted a highlight video from a postseason series two years ago to try to prove your point about Ben Simmons' clutchness when every person who's even remotely interested in the NBA knows he just **** the bed in a massive way in the playoffs. That's a thing you just did.
    He saw Thys heading towards him and thought he knew how to dunk. Being selfless is a good trait to have then someone whose choking yet continue taking shots after shots while turning the ball over. Your Randle fg % in the playoff was 28.9 unless you think going 2 for 14 is better than not taking any shots at all. Ben fg was 62.1 cause he knew he would miss if he took them while Randle doesn't care as a known ball hog his entire career which is why he took that extension while laughing to the bank.

    This is all Doc's fault for tossing Ben under the bus instead of encouraging him like Brett does as Ben plays much better in the playoffs for him. If Doc had toss Lebron under the bus with that response as his coach, Lebron would have Doc manning a radar tower in Alaska by the end of the day with his clothes mailed to him. Doc cannot manage star players which is why Kawhi got rid of him!
    Last edited by cattusmaru; 09-04-2021 at 12:48 AM.

  11. #1511
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    You should bet everything you have


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    And so should you if you're smart.

  12. #1512
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    At least kick the guy in the nuts.
    LOL

    Yes Iíd also expect Dray to do that.

  13. #1513
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    It's pretty clear who actually watches Kings games and who doesn't.


  14. #1514
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacgiants1213 View Post
    It's pretty clear who actually watches Kings games and who doesn't.
    people watch kings games?

  15. #1515
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    I believe he meant who watches The Kingís games. Cuz we all witness

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