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  1. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Thybulle is willing and good enough. If you believe in your program then hes a good fit. Hes also excellent in off ball movement.


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    Only concern I would have then is value in terms of contract. I think both OG and Freddy are on very reasonable contracts where as Simmons is on a max that he isnt living up to. Having Siakam and Simmons both on max could spell disaster for us.

  2. #1667
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    well that's just it, with Ben going public with his trade demand and Doc mishandling the situation it made Morey's job that much harder to get the value he hopes for.

    Every GM should want to try and win any trade they make, but it proves more difficult when all parties are airing out their dirty laundry and other GM's are thinking well hold on now, that situation over there is messy why should I cave to their demands when we all know if Ben isn't traded, their season will be heavily impacted by distractions and locker room drama. So obviously Morey is more hard pressed now to move Ben than any GM is to attain him.

    This is why I hold Doc more accountable because he use to be a GM and should know better. But to your point Ben and his agent are making it more difficult too. Ben already has a very negative light shinging on him, and any more damage to his rep will only make the offers go lower. No one wants a head case and from the rumours, Ben is a bit of a diva.
    But as long as Ben is traded, the lower the offer for him the better it is for Ben. And none of this effects his pocketbook anytime soon.
    Last edited by Scoots; 09-09-2021 at 10:00 PM.

  3. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Thybulle is willing and good enough. If you believe in your program then hes a good fit. Hes also excellent in off ball movement.


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    I like Thybulle. I think people are just throwing him in any trade scenario like doesnt have value. Id definitely want to hold on to him if I could


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  4. #1669
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I think Morey would rather have OG and FVV for Simmons and Thybulle at that rate.
    I think Fred VanVleet would thrive in Philly. Hes not the pure scorer you dream of but hes turned himself into a player and he is really heady. I think hed play well off Joel


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  5. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I like Thybulle. I think people are just throwing him in any trade scenario like doesnt have value. Id definitely want to hold on to him if I could


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    Oh people are for sure acting like Thybulle and Maxey are toss ins to a deal. But in my proposed deal OG is an upgrade to Thybulle due to shooting. And it allows us to use Danny Green as salary in any other move, because I think a deal like FVV/OG for Simmons/Thybulle would require moving Curry for size or to the bench. I wouldn't want to start Thybulle with that lineup so FVV/Green/OG/Harris/Embiid is a really good starting point for this team.

    If the Spurs are still really interested I'd look at:
    Sixers in - Dejounte Murray, Dillon Brooks
    Spurs in - Ben Simmons, Tyrese Maxey
    Grizzlies in - Derrick White, 2022 Sixers 1st

    I think each team gets what they really need there. Sixers get a PG who can shoot and a starting wing, taking an overall talent hit for a better on court fit. Spurs get the guy they covet in Simmons, and a you developable PG in Maxey (I think Parker is a great comp for him and who better than the Spurs to develop that), and the Grizzlies get a send ball handler and spot up shooter to pair with White along with salary reset with the picks.

    Another thought I've had on it if the Warriors would end up being interested, and lowering the price (although, a lot of NBA Radio guys are getting on Wiggins, Kumanga, Wiseman, 1 pick for Simmons):
    Sixers in - Derrick White, Kyle Anderson, Thad Young
    Spurs in - Draymond Green, 2022 Sixers 1st
    Warriors in - Ben Simmons
    Grizzlies in - Jonathan Kuminga

    Sixers -
    White
    Green
    Anderson
    Harris
    Embiid
    Bench: Maxey, Thybulle, Young, Drummond, Korkmaz, Curry

    Spurs -
    Murray
    Walker
    Johnson
    Green
    Poetl
    Bench: Forbes, Vassell, McDermott, Aminu, Collins

    Warriors -
    Curry
    Thompson
    Wiggins
    Simmons
    Wiseman
    Bench: Moody, Looney, Poole, Iggy, Porter

    Grizzlies -
    Morant
    Brooks
    Kuminga
    JJJ
    Adams
    Bench: Jones, Bane, Clarke, Culver

  6. #1671
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I like Thybulle. I think people are just throwing him in any trade scenario like doesnt have value. Id definitely want to hold on to him if I could


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    Agree, I think if youre moving Simmons it would be wise to hold on to Thybulle as your best perimeter defender

  7. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    But as long as Ben is traded, the lower the offer for him the better it is for Ben. And none of this effects his pocketbook anytime soon.
    True, obviously the less the team gives up for Simmons, the more they have to put around him.

  8. #1673
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I think Fred VanVleet would thrive in Philly. Hes not the pure scorer you dream of but hes turned himself into a player and he is really heady. I think hed play well off Joel


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    Thing is FVVs numbers are on par with Simmons. Just glancing really quick its 19,6&4 vs 14,7&7. Grant it they are very different players. Simmons is a better defender, but Freddy is a pretty good defender in his own right. Surely we would add to the package built around Freddy but it wont be OG. Raptors would lose that trade very easily.

  9. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Thing is FVVs numbers are on par with Simmons. Just glancing really quick its 19,6&4 vs 14,7&7. Grant it they are very different players. Simmons is a better defender, but Freddy is a pretty good defender in his own right. Surely we would add to the package built around Freddy but it wont be OG. Raptors would lose that trade very easily.
    Yea but he shouldn't be a 19 pt scorer though. He was pretty inefficient last year as he becr a larger part of the offense. His 3pt rate jumped and he took 3 more 3s per game last year than the year before, which was also a jump year for him and shot the worst he's shot since his rookie year. He's always been a bad finisher due to his size and lack of elite athleticism.

    Not saying he's a bad player by any means, but if he was in Simmons role in Philly, I think there's very little chance he gets close to 19 a game. He'd maybe be a bit higher than the 14 Simmons scored a night but I dont think it's much higher if he's playing the type of role he should be playing on a good team.

    FVV is definitely a good fit for Philly, but I'd feel more comfortable with him if the other assets coming back from Toronto are also pretty good players. FVV feels like a suped up version of Seth Curry in that offense, so I still think you need another at least passable guard to help that team out if you're dealing Simmons for FVV+.

  10. #1675
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    FVV is good all around but not great at anything. At this point it looks unlikely that the Sixers will be getting a legit second star to have next to Embiid in a Simmons trade, so the name of the game is building a competent team around him that can freely flow within the function of the larger team offense, and execute team oriented sets when Embiid sits or is gassed.

    It's definitely concerning how overly reliant the Sixers are on Embiid, where a few bad playoff games from him can absolutely break Philly's title hopes. FVV's playoff performance history would make me want him more than Murray, who is more of an unknown at this point. The Sixers will need the perfect storm of chemistry, everyone knowing their role, and Embiid being a good enough engine in the playoffs to propel them to the finals (gotta cut down on those bad passes!). Fred coming in and being a glue guy could be a needle mover though.

  11. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    FVV is good all around but not great at anything. At this point it looks unlikely that the Sixers will be getting a legit second star to have next to Embiid in a Simmons trade, so the name of the game is building a competent team around him that can freely flow within the function of the larger team offense, and execute team oriented sets when Embiid sits or is gassed.

    It's definitely concerning how overly reliant the Sixers are on Embiid, where a few bad playoff games from him can absolutely break Philly's title hopes. FVV's playoff performance history would make me want him more than Murray, who is more of an unknown at this point. The Sixers will need the perfect storm of chemistry, everyone knowing their role, and Embiid being a good enough engine in the playoffs to propel them to the finals (gotta cut down on those bad passes!). Fred coming in and being a glue guy could be a needle mover though.
    I think at this point the sticking side from Morey isn't that he's hell bent on a star, he wants quantity in return. He wants a bunch of guys or parts.

    Like if you were to get, say, Wiggins, Kumonga, and a pick, then you turn around with Kumonga and the pick along with Maxey and a pick of your own to get a good PG from someone else; then you have a better lineup. The issue isn't that a team won't give up a star or something like that. It's the lack of an offer that's got an array of assets to use.

    So if you think of it like this for the rumored teams involved:
    Cleveland - The matching salary they have would be Love (who no one wants) and Rubio+Markkanen/Allen (which they just resigned both). Outside of that their youth is ok, not great, and they can add picks. Well the Sexton thing has been well documented. So maybe they toss Okoro into this as well with Rubio and Markkanen to make salary work. So Simmons for Sexton, Okoro, Rubio, Markkanen. So could the Sixers flip Okoro, Rubio, Markkanen for a starting SF?

    Minnesota - So we know KAT, DLo, AntEd are off the table for this deal. That leaves Beasley and Okogie along with picks as your base to start with. Do they put Prince or PBev as the salary matching? I would guess more they would want to put PBev in there to salary match. Maybe you can get a pick along with that. So Simmons for Beasley, Okogie, Beverley, 2022 1st. Could the Sixers take Okogie, 2022 Minny 1st, Curry, 2022 Sixers 1st and get a SF out of that?

    Warriors - So the obvious salary match is Wiggins, but what parts of the youth are the appropriate filler. Is it Kumonga, is it Wiseman, is it Moody or does it take 2 of them. Do you get one of those young guys with a pick in there to make that move? I think the "less obvious" but smarter move from GSW's standpoint is get a team to take Draymond and keep Wiggins. But lets stick with the Simmons for Wiggins, Kumonga, 2022 1st. Can the Sixers use Kumonga, 2022 GSW 1st, 2022 Sixers 1st to get a starting level PG?

    Kings - Again the obvious move here is Fox for Simmons straight up. The next deal would be Haliburton and Hield. The one they are pushing of Hield and Bagley needs help. Is that help Davion Mitchell? Is it multiple picks? I think the second deal (the Kings seem to want Fox with Simmons) of Haliburton and Hield for Simmons and 2022 Sixers 1st works. But what would the Sixers do from there because that's a lot of guys not know for defense, and one of those guys (Hield) is someone who's been on the block for a year with no takers.

    Lakers/Clippers - They are both out.

    As you can see from a lot of this there's a need for an additional move. With the rumor that the Grizzlies are willing to part with Brooks and Anderson, if I were Morey, I would be on the phone with them of what kind of asset package would they want for one of those guys.

    Like I would take Beasley, Beverly, Okogie, 2022 Minny 1st for Simmons. Then flip Okogie, Curry, 2022 Minny 1st, and future Sixers pick for Kyle Anderson.

    Minnesota:
    DLo
    AntEd
    Prince
    Simmons
    KAT

    Memphis:
    Morant
    Curry
    Brooks
    JJJ
    Adams

    Sixers:
    Beverly
    Green
    Anderson
    Harris
    Embiid

    I'll just comment on the Sixers end of all of this. But that's a nasty defense to have to deal with, especially with the Nets in the division. Offensively it is ok with the spacing. Beasley can start if needed. More defense is on the bench with Thybulle and Maxey, and there's still some shooting with Niang and Korkmaz. Still have decent assets and good salary to move if the opportunity comes up (Beverly, Green, Anderson, Niang, Korkmaz are all $15mil or under).

  12. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    I think at this point the sticking side from Morey isn't that he's hell bent on a star, he wants quantity in return. He wants a bunch of guys or parts.

    Like if you were to get, say, Wiggins, Kumonga, and a pick, then you turn around with Kumonga and the pick along with Maxey and a pick of your own to get a good PG from someone else; then you have a better lineup. The issue isn't that a team won't give up a star or something like that. It's the lack of an offer that's got an array of assets to use.

    So if you think of it like this for the rumored teams involved:
    Cleveland - The matching salary they have would be Love (who no one wants) and Rubio+Markkanen/Allen (which they just resigned both). Outside of that their youth is ok, not great, and they can add picks. Well the Sexton thing has been well documented. So maybe they toss Okoro into this as well with Rubio and Markkanen to make salary work. So Simmons for Sexton, Okoro, Rubio, Markkanen. So could the Sixers flip Okoro, Rubio, Markkanen for a starting SF?

    Minnesota - So we know KAT, DLo, AntEd are off the table for this deal. That leaves Beasley and Okogie along with picks as your base to start with. Do they put Prince or PBev as the salary matching? I would guess more they would want to put PBev in there to salary match. Maybe you can get a pick along with that. So Simmons for Beasley, Okogie, Beverley, 2022 1st. Could the Sixers take Okogie, 2022 Minny 1st, Curry, 2022 Sixers 1st and get a SF out of that?

    Warriors - So the obvious salary match is Wiggins, but what parts of the youth are the appropriate filler. Is it Kumonga, is it Wiseman, is it Moody or does it take 2 of them. Do you get one of those young guys with a pick in there to make that move? I think the "less obvious" but smarter move from GSW's standpoint is get a team to take Draymond and keep Wiggins. But lets stick with the Simmons for Wiggins, Kumonga, 2022 1st. Can the Sixers use Kumonga, 2022 GSW 1st, 2022 Sixers 1st to get a starting level PG?

    Kings - Again the obvious move here is Fox for Simmons straight up. The next deal would be Haliburton and Hield. The one they are pushing of Hield and Bagley needs help. Is that help Davion Mitchell? Is it multiple picks? I think the second deal (the Kings seem to want Fox with Simmons) of Haliburton and Hield for Simmons and 2022 Sixers 1st works. But what would the Sixers do from there because that's a lot of guys not know for defense, and one of those guys (Hield) is someone who's been on the block for a year with no takers.

    Lakers/Clippers - They are both out.

    As you can see from a lot of this there's a need for an additional move. With the rumor that the Grizzlies are willing to part with Brooks and Anderson, if I were Morey, I would be on the phone with them of what kind of asset package would they want for one of those guys.

    Like I would take Beasley, Beverly, Okogie, 2022 Minny 1st for Simmons. Then flip Okogie, Curry, 2022 Minny 1st, and future Sixers pick for Kyle Anderson.

    Minnesota:
    DLo
    AntEd
    Prince
    Simmons
    KAT

    Memphis:
    Morant
    Curry
    Brooks
    JJJ
    Adams

    Sixers:
    Beverly
    Green
    Anderson
    Harris
    Embiid

    I'll just comment on the Sixers end of all of this. But that's a nasty defense to have to deal with, especially with the Nets in the division. Offensively it is ok with the spacing. Beasley can start if needed. More defense is on the bench with Thybulle and Maxey, and there's still some shooting with Niang and Korkmaz. Still have decent assets and good salary to move if the opportunity comes up (Beverly, Green, Anderson, Niang, Korkmaz are all $15mil or under).
    Beverly and Green as your starting backcourt....yuck. Bench unit would be nice in that scenario but I just don't think Beverly/Green is near good enough.

  13. #1678
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    Is Ben Simmons going to forgo game checks? Mystery injury to force a trade? He's locked into a contract until 24-25 so he doesn't have a whole lot of options on his side. You obviously would have already liked to move him for a second star to pair with Embiid, but that doesn't mean you trade him for fifty cents on the dollar. Just don't see the upside in bringing in FVV or Murray with little else back or whatever meh the Wolves want to part with. What needle does that move? Is Harris moved after?

    He's going to have to play the season unless the right deal comes along. You then can revaluate the situation at the deadline when some of the stink has worn off for a deal that makes sense or look into settling for one of those 50 cents on the dollar type deals.
    Last edited by Westbrook36; 09-10-2021 at 12:32 PM.

  14. #1679
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZNC View Post
    Beverly and Green as your starting backcourt....yuck. Bench unit would be nice in that scenario but I just don't think Beverly/Green is near good enough.
    Yea Im not overly enthused but its why I bring up still having plenty of assets at that point to go do something else if we want to.


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  15. #1680
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Yea but he shouldn't be a 19 pt scorer though. He was pretty inefficient last year as he becr a larger part of the offense. His 3pt rate jumped and he took 3 more 3s per game last year than the year before, which was also a jump year for him and shot the worst he's shot since his rookie year. He's always been a bad finisher due to his size and lack of elite athleticism.

    Not saying he's a bad player by any means, but if he was in Simmons role in Philly, I think there's very little chance he gets close to 19 a game. He'd maybe be a bit higher than the 14 Simmons scored a night but I dont think it's much higher if he's playing the type of role he should be playing on a good team.

    FVV is definitely a good fit for Philly, but I'd feel more comfortable with him if the other assets coming back from Toronto are also pretty good players. FVV feels like a suped up version of Seth Curry in that offense, so I still think you need another at least passable guard to help that team out if you're dealing Simmons for FVV+.
    if you look at Toronto's season last year, you would see why Freddy had to force a lot. First Siakam got covid and missed significant time and came back 15 lbs lighter and didn't look like himself, then was playing injured and ultimately had to have surgery. Then Lowry was shut down in the second half of the season. Freddy was out there with our g league roster essentially.. We still had guys like GTJ, and OG but aside from that the rotation was extremely thin. But if you look at the season before when the raps were a play off team he was much more efficient and I think that is more indicative of the player he really is. 17.6 ,6.6, & 4 on 41/39/84 shooting %'.

    Even if you don't consider Freddy a 19 ppg scorer (which is fair) his PPG might dip but his efficiency would go back up if he didn't have to force so much and was playing on a contending deep team. So lets say his PPG goes from 19 to 16 but his assists go up. That's still pretty close to Simmons 14, 7 & 7. But hes def spreading the floor out more than Simmons ever could and that alone would benefit Embiid a lot. Not to mention Freddy isnt afraid of big shot moments, his shots were the ones that sealed the deal for our championship.

    If were talking offensive efficiency Ben is 61% from the free throw line. Hes 30% from 3 and takes 0.2 of the per game lol which is essentially nothing. FG% is good but stopped taking shots in the post season. Its easy to look efficient when all your shots are coming from within 10 feet. Defensively though hes far superior no question about that.

    With respect to the bolded we would still build a package around FVV, but including OG wouldn't be it, as that would be a home run trade for Philly and easily a loss for Toronto. But yes we would still put other assets in a package for Freddy 100%. Im not saying its worth trading them straight up.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-10-2021 at 01:03 PM.

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