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  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    As I said, your opinion is based on nothing substantial
    No itís based on various reports and it wasnít simply my opinion. Why would there be so many false reports regarding selfish play? You think thereís a conspiracy against Sexton or something?

    donít act like youíve watched 82 or 72 games of sexton for 3 years. You havenít so why you acting like you have the benefit of the eye test? your opinion is also based on nothing substantial if thatís your angle.

  2. #1622
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    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Crazy part to me is he receives half this years salary October 1st, it is almost easy to sit out at that point, even if the 76ers did decide to fine him.

  3. #1623
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Crazy part to me is he receives half this years salary October 1st, it is almost easy to sit out at that point, even if the 76ers did decide to fine him.
    I found that odd too. Iím sure the nba would step in if he did that though. This thing is gonna get messy if he isnít moved. Hope we donít have a Davis/Pelicans situation.

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    Trade destinations for Ben Simmons

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    No itís based on various reports and it wasnít simply my opinion. Why would there be so many false reports regarding selfish play? You think thereís a conspiracy against Sexton or something?

    donít act like youíve watched 82 or 72 games of sexton for 3 years. You havenít so why you acting like you have the benefit of the eye test? your opinion is also based on nothing substantial if thatís your angle.
    Sooo many haha. Iíve said repeatedly I havenít watched him enough to be totally sold but his numbers, skill set, and trajectory point to a player better then you are crediting. I also disagree with the idea that players need to be Klay off the ball or Luca on it. What did all these reports say anyway? I heard things you expect to happen on a terrible team. Do you really think there are teams that lose every night where guys who donít get the Ball as much arenít pissed about it? How many players have actually said something? How many public run ins has he had with his teammates? How many on court blow ups? A story went viral about someone taking trash. Like I said nothing substantial just empty narrative. Did you have the same low opinion of Booker and Young before this last year? They had very similar press
    Last edited by ewing; 09-08-2021 at 09:12 PM.
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  5. #1625
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    I do think the Cavs gave up this year. They were bad but shouldnít have been that bad. That is a little concerning and I would want to know as much about Collin as possible before trading for him. Talent wise I think he is good. He seems to be a hard worker and a guy that gives effort. Iím not really worried about the selfish thing but Iíd want to know what type of person/teammate he is


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    He averaged 17 drives a game and had good finishing #s on the worst shooting team in the NBA. He is a ball handler and an on ball creator. So long as he isnít flying solo is the creation/distribution department the numbers say he can definitely be a big plus offensively. Heís not a natural distributor but the fact that he lives in the paint will create open looks on a team with any shooting. You donít need a true PG in most spots. I would really like to see him grow in Philly.
    Saying he isnít good or is a 6th man at best is very short sighted at this point.

    He is 6í1 but has a 6í6 wing span with physical strength, is very high motor, and was a defensive player coming in. You hate anyone under 6í4 but I think he can also be a good defender at the POV and play ones and twos effectively. Itís harder to predict the defense in a different environment and there are concerns. Cleveland has been terrible on D and Collin is definitely part of that

    Honestly the vast majority of the Sexton hate is bc of one viral quote. Heís a good basketball player. He is supposed to be hard to get along with but in a Jimmy Butler way where he is overly intense. That can be an issue but it can also be a positive.


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    He does drive a lot but also has one of the lowest pass percentages amongst players with 13+ drives a game (the only 4 players that have lower pass percentages all score at a more efficient rate on drives than him), so I'd hardly call him a creator.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/dr...F=DRIVES*GE*13

    I've watched a good amount of Sexton this past year so I'll elaborate a bit further. For starters he's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum defensively amongst all starting guards this year. He just doesn't really offer anything on that end, and he can't change his size, so I'm not sure how much room he has to grow. I wouldn't describe him as "high motor" either. He coasts on both ends of the floor when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. You can blame this on being apart of a bad team, but it is what it is.

    The biggest issue with Sexton is that not only does he not elevate his teammates play, he actively hurts them. When we filter out garbage time we can see that the Cavs team FG% takes a significant hit compared to when Garland is on the floor without him:

    https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos...,High,VeryHigh

    And to be honest this checks out based on the eye test. The dude has not found a way to be compatible with another on ball guard, or gel naturally within the flow of an offense. Because he has such severe tunnel vision and fails to get his teammates involved this is a huge problem, as he can't be relied upon to run an offense, let alone an offense that has title hopes.

    Tracking data shows that he has a time of possession around 6 minutes per game, which is super high for a shooting guard. For context, guys like Beal, Booker, CJ, and Booker all have lower on ball time, mainly due to their ability to contribute on offense without the ball in their hands. Hell, he ball pounds even more than Ben Simmons, averaging more dribbles per touch, more seconds per touch, and a higher overall time of possession. Long story short, Sexton has the ball in his hands a ton and the Cavs offense doesn't have much to show for it.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/to..._NAME*E*Sexton

    Before we go and blame the quality of Sexton's teammates, Garland also has the ball around 6 minutes per game, but actually boosts his teammates efficiency and shot opportunities.

    https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/...ayerId=1629636

    https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/...ayerId=1629012

    Again, most of my analysis stems from watching way too much Garland and Sexton this year as opposed to anything numbers-wise, but scratch beneath the surface of Sexton's slash line and you start to see that things align with the eye test. His offense simply isn't ready to have a major role on a team gunning for a title. Especially considering the fact that high quality playmaking is something the Sixers still lack, with Embiid still struggling to find cutters and open shooter out of doubles.

    Also it's important to contextualize his at rim percentage. While he's definitely a good rim finisher, that number is fluffed a bit by transition FGA. A little more than half of his at rim attempts came from transition, as opposed to carving out opportunities at the rim in the half court ala Rose or Ja.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/tr...PerMode=Totals

    He also average 7 pull ups game, but only shot 40% on them. That's certainly Jamal Crawford esque

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/pu..._NAME*E*Sexton

    With Sexton's current game in mind it's hard to picture him fitting in on the Sixers roster as is, he still goes into business for himself way too often and fails to elevate his teammates.

    Also quick stat lesson - Usage is literally just FGA + turnovers. It has nothing built in to acknowledge playmaking or even general ball dominance. We have literal tracking data and can measure how long a player has the ball in their hands per game, no need to cite usage (this isn't at you specifically I just saw someone else mention usage).
    Last edited by VCaintdead17; 09-08-2021 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    I found that odd too. Iím sure the nba would step in if he did that though. This thing is gonna get messy if he isnít moved. Hope we donít have a Davis/Pelicans situation.
    Butler went and played games for the Wolves, Harden went and played games for the Rockets. If Morey can't find a trade he likes, seems odd Ben wouldn't even give it a go. I understand risk of injury, but still.

  8. #1628
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    Trade destinations for Ben Simmons

    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    He does drive a lot but also has one of the lowest pass percentages amongst players with 13+ drives a game (the only 4 players that have lower pass percentages all score at a more efficient rate on drives than him), so I'd hardly call him a creator.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/dr...F=DRIVES*GE*13

    I've watched a good amount of Sexton this past year so I'll elaborate a bit further. For starters he's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum defensively amongst all starting guards this year. He just doesn't really offer anything on that end, and he can't change his size, so I'm not sure how much room he has to grow. I wouldn't describe him as "high motor" either. He coasts on both ends of the floor when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. You can blame this on being apart of a bad team, but it is what it is.

    The biggest issue with Sexton is that not only does he not elevate his teammates play, he actively hurts them. When we filter out garbage time we can see that the Cavs team FG% takes a significant hit compared to when Garland is on the floor without him:

    https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos...,High,VeryHigh

    And to be honest this checks out based on the eye test. The dude has not found a way to be compatible with another on ball guard, or gel naturally within the flow of an offense. Because he has such severe tunnel vision and fails to get his teammates involved this is a huge problem, as he can't be relied upon to run an offense, let alone an offense that has title hopes.

    Tracking data shows that he has a time of possession around 6 minutes per game, which is super high for a shooting guard. For context, guys like Beal, Booker, CJ, and Booker all have lower on ball time, mainly due to their ability to contribute on offense without the ball in their hands. Hell, he ball pounds even more than Ben Simmons, averaging more dribbles per touch, more seconds per touch, and a higher overall time of possession. Long story short, Sexton has the ball in his hands a ton and the Cavs offense doesn't have much to show for it.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/to..._NAME*E*Sexton

    Before we go and blame the quality of Sexton's teammates, Garland also has the ball around 6 minutes per game, but actually boosts his teammates efficiency and shot opportunities.

    https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/...ayerId=1629636

    https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/...ayerId=1629012

    Again, most of my analysis stems from watching way too much Garland and Sexton this year as opposed to anything numbers-wise, but scratch beneath the surface of Sexton's slash line and you start to see that things align with the eye test. His offense simply isn't ready to have a major role on a team gunning for a title. Especially considering the fact that high quality playmaking is something the Sixers still lack, with Embiid still struggling to find cutters and open shooter out of doubles.

    With Sexton's current game in mind it's hard to picture him fitting in on the Sixers roster as is, he still goes into business for himself way too often and fails to elevate his teammates.

    Also quick stat lesson - Usage is literally just FGA + turnovers. It has nothing built in to acknowledge playmaking or even general ball dominance. We have literal tracking data and can measure how long a player has the ball in their hands per game, no need to cite usage (this isn't at you specifically I just saw someone else mention usage).
    Good post. Thanks. This a good analysis. I do think some things like teamís FG% on/off are throw away stats on a terrible team that actually quit on the season.

    I think the time of possession/dribble count numbers are concerning. He needs to not ball stop and get the ball out of his hands

    Looking at the pass % list. The four guys below him are all pretty damn good and not me first ball hogs refusing to give it up. They are also guys that donít just get thereís but help a teams offense. His efficiency was good despite an bad situation for it and has consistently improved. If he was a little less efficient then Mitchell last year I think thatís ok. What are we saying with this stat? Iím not sure. His assist #s were pretty good when Garland went down I wonder if that changed as well

    I do think on a decent team his ability to get to the cup will create offense. The Cavs cant shoot. With more space his drives and reads will be easier. From what Iíve seen heís not a natural distributor but he isnít without feel either. Basically with shooters his finishing and creating will both be better. He a good enough a driver where he is going to create offense unless he has no feel at all.

    I guess the question to me is will his shot making and the offense created from him collapsing defenses be offset by stagnation created by him holding the ball too long and pounding it.

    Good post

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    Last edited by ewing; 09-08-2021 at 10:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Good post. Thanks. This a good analysis. I do think some things like teamís FG% on/off are throw away stats on a terrible team that actually quit on the season.

    I do think the time of possession numbers are concerning. He needs to not ball stop and get the ball out of god hands

    I do think on a decent team his ability to get to the cup will create offense. The Cavs can shoot. With more space heís drives and reads will be easier. From what Iíve seen heís not a natural distributor but he isnít without feel either. Basically with shooters his finishing and creating will both be better. He a good enough driver where he is going to create offense unless he has no feel at all.


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    I think the most concerning thing aren't his habits, it's the fact that he's only 6'1 and doesn't really seem to have the skill set to be a point guard. He's too undersized to be a true shooting guard, but doesn't have that playmaking prowess to run point, which is why to me he seems like a microwave scorer off the bench. He could definitely change his bad tendencies on offense, but it would be interesting to see how his game would translate in the playoffs against much tougher defenses.

  10. #1630
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    Trade destinations for Ben Simmons

    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    I think the most concerning thing aren't his habits, it's the fact that he's only 6'1 and doesn't really seem to have the skill set to be a point guard. He's too undersized to be a true shooting guard, but doesn't have that playmaking prowess to run point, which is why to me he seems like a microwave scorer off the bench. He could definitely change his bad tendencies on offense, but it would be interesting to see how his game would translate in the playoffs against much tougher defenses.
    I added more to my post. I question this need for him to be a true shooting guard or a true pg bc he is 6í1. Teams have players share play making responsibilities. It might be more common for a tall guy to take all the play making responsibilities now. He can be one of the play makers on a team imo. I think If his habits lead to stagnation thatís the problem. a lot of your analysis does make sense though. As for the playoffs: He is decent but not a pure shooter at all. He can create in tight spaces in isolation. I think shooting and the ability to create are what are most needed for playoff scoring. Heís not made for it but doesnít scream Iím going to struggle like Ben


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    Last edited by ewing; 09-09-2021 at 12:23 AM.
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  11. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBA all the way View Post
    Butler went and played games for the Wolves, Harden went and played games for the Rockets. If Morey can't find a trade he likes, seems odd Ben wouldn't even give it a go. I understand risk of injury, but still.
    and he actually has a chance to win itís not like his team is bad.

  12. #1632
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    and he actually has a chance to win itís not like his team is bad.
    The thing that's the most bothersome there from a Sixers and other teams standpoint is there's a lack of accountability there in not acknowledging that he had a hand in the decline of his trade value.

    And that's what got me thinking he almost is intentionally doing things to get out of Philly. The team for so long bent over backwards to allow him to do what he wanted, supported him endlessly, had two coaches go out of their way to defend him. But one attempt at a trade for a top 5-7 player and comments after a game 7 elimination unravels that? That's not enough to walk away from a team and treat them like that.

    This is really striking me as a LeBron leaving Cleveland 1.0 type situation; where the reality is he's been given everything he's wanted, yet the issue is everyone else and he's not the problem. Then he gets somewhere where the franchise is going to tell him "tough ****" thinking that's where he wants to be, and he learns to own up to being part of the solution.

    I mean, if you think about the complications being put forth here of the trade:
    Too high of an asking price Sixers
    Refusal to shoot the ball Simmons
    Won't show up to camp because they didn't get what they want Simmons
    Threatening to not play games Simmons
    Not taking accountability for trade value Simmons
    Upset over single post game comments Simmons
    Made post game comments Doc, Embiid
    Made off season comments Green, Curry
    Revolving reports of where he wants to end up Simmons/Rich Paul

    So of all these issues currently going on, you have 3 things (comments and asking price) that are Sixers related and 6 things that are Simmons related. I still think as a player he can improve but man his attitude is getting really tiresome and he's just making things worse for himself with each comment. It makes it harder and harder to move him, especially since most teams need to have a salary consideration, and Morey has already said Simmons won't be traded just to be traded.

  13. #1633
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    Also for people making comments about Doc saying "I don't know" when asked if you can win with Simmons as your PG, get over yourselves because half of you are in agreement when people say Ben should be a PF. It's not like Doc said he's trash, not worth a max, or not a starter. He simply pointed to he's not sure if you can win a ring with him at PG. That's not a earth shattering player pashing statement.

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I do think the Cavs gave up this year. They were bad but shouldnít have been that bad. That is a little concerning and I would want to know as much about Collin as possible before trading for him. Talent wise I think he is good. He seems to be a hard worker and a guy that gives effort. Iím not really worried about the selfish thing but Iíd want to know what type of person/teammate he is


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    What was your first clue? Obviously theyíre in rebuild mode, when weíre they ever going to compete this year?

  15. #1635
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Good post. Thanks. This a good analysis. I do think some things like teamís FG% on/off are throw away stats on a terrible team that actually quit on the season.

    I think the time of possession/dribble count numbers are concerning. He needs to not ball stop and get the ball out of his hands

    Looking at the pass % list. The four guys below him are all pretty damn good and not me first ball hogs refusing to give it up. They are also guys that donít just get thereís but help a teams offense. His efficiency was good despite an bad situation for it and has consistently improved. If he was a little less efficient then Mitchell last year I think thatís ok. What are we saying with this stat? Iím not sure. His assist #s were pretty good when Garland went down I wonder if that changed as well

    I do think on a decent team his ability to get to the cup will create offense. The Cavs cant shoot. With more space his drives and reads will be easier. From what Iíve seen heís not a natural distributor but he isnít without feel either. Basically with shooters his finishing and creating will both be better. He a good enough a driver where he is going to create offense unless he has no feel at all.

    I guess the question to me is will his shot making and the offense created from him collapsing defenses be offset by stagnation created by him holding the ball too long and pounding it.

    Good post

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    But his points per possession metrics for plays like pick and roll ball handler and isolation plays wasn't good. Sure, so r of that is having bad teammates, but amongst the top 30ish guys for isos, only Russ and brogdim were worse for PPP. His saving grace from a PPP perspective was in transition, where he was pretty good. But in most the half court stuff, his PPP on the types of plays he does most was not good.

    And to your earlier point, there's plenty of wiggle room between Klay and Luka. But to get the most out of the non stars between those guys, they need to either be elite at one complimentary skill, like a Joe Harris or even a Pat Beverly or they need to be well rounded, particularly rounded in doing alot of the little things like defense, rebounding, shooting and making the extra pass.

    And that's my point on sexton. Sexton isn't good enough to be the best player on a great team. Maybe he's a number 2 on a decent team. If we're talking a legit team with championship aspirations, he's probably the 3rd best player at best. And that's where I struggle with his skill set. Most teams who have 2 better guys than him will have someone who does a better job of doing what sexton does best. So if he's doing less of being on the ball and attacking, what else does he offer. He's a solid but not elite spot up shooter. So he will help floor spacing. Hell also be able to do some secondary attacking. As the ball is being rotated, he can shoot or attack aggressive close outs. There's definite value there. But you also have to factor in his seeming lack of other skills. Hell likely, at least at times, kill ball movement. And he's very likely to be a bad defender, at least right now in both on ball and team defense. And he isn't great at other stuff like rebounding. While that's not super important as a guard, being a good rebounder would add a bit to his value.

    Anf that's been my point on sexton all along. It's not that he's a bad player. It's that his play style is that of a lead dog, but his talent level isn't quite lead dog level. So when you put him in a secondary role or supporting cast type guy, even if it's one of the better supporting cast guys on the team, it slightly lessens the impact of his strengths and further highlights his weaknesses.

    He could be a decent fit for a few specific situations. Someone suggested maimi at one point. I agree that probabky makes sense. Butler and Bam are both high level defenders and that team struggles to score the basketball in the half court. So that specific situation could be a good fit for his skills. I think playing alongside Simmons as opposed to being traded for him could make sense as Simmons doesn't score it well but can defend the more dangerous perimeter option (although teams would force switches in the playoffs.) But for most teams who have a ball dominant lead scorer, Im not sure he's a great fit. It feels like a situation where the sum of the parts doesn't match the individual talent level.

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