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  1. #1861
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    If I'm Sacramento, though, why would I give up Haliburton for Simmons? Like, I get that they have a glut of guards, but again, I think a 21-year-old Haliburton on a rookie contract with some legitimate offensive ability might have more value than a pissed off 25-year-old Simmons on a max deal coming off a dumpster fire of a postseason.

    For the Kings, you might consider that deal, but take out the swap and add a Philly 1st rounder. That feels more like what Simmons' value is at right now.
    Well the Kings did have literally the worst Drtg in NBA history last season...so there's that. Having an all league level multi-purpose defender to plug up gaps at the 4 could be huge. Still not sure if it's worth it for the Kings, but I see the appeal.

    Also let's stop pretending that Morey is dumb enough to consider washed, overpaid John Wall lol. Only scenario that happens is if there's a third team to dump him and all the picks to in order to get an actual needle mover.
    Last edited by VCaintdead17; 09-20-2021 at 07:16 PM.

  2. #1862
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Back to the Simmons and Wall trade ideas:

    Wall
    Tate
    House
    + 2 picks & 3 swaps

    Simmons (+ any two of Thubulle, Maxey, Korkmaz, or Milton)
    Swaps aren't that valuable. Early on they are but as time goes along, those picks may not convey. In this scenario, Philly isn't getting better as a team in the short term. They are worse and Houston is better. If the young guards in Houston plus Simmons are as advertised, they could be a borderline playoff team soon. And add in Philly getting worse, with their best player an injury risk and there's absolutely a decent chance the two teams are picking close to one another within 2 years or so, making the swaps irrelevant.

    Swaps are smart to add as lotto tickets, but realistically they don't carry much value in actual trades because they absolutely are a risk to be a literal nothing.

    I didn't see if there was any counter offer, but this isn't even close in my mind that there's no real counter to be made. Wall is a negative and the amount of picks you have to attach to him just to be rid of him doesnt even take into account Simmons value.

  3. #1863
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Swaps aren't that valuable. Early on they are but as time goes along, those picks may not convey. In this scenario, Philly isn't getting better as a team in the short term. They are worse and Houston is better. If the young guards in Houston plus Simmons are as advertised, they could be a borderline playoff team soon. And add in Philly getting worse, with their best player an injury risk and there's absolutely a decent chance the two teams are picking close to one another within 2 years or so, making the swaps irrelevant.

    Swaps are smart to add as lotto tickets, but realistically they don't carry much value in actual trades because they absolutely are a risk to be a literal nothing.

    I didn't see if there was any counter offer, but this isn't even close in my mind that there's no real counter to be made. Wall is a negative and the amount of picks you have to attach to him just to be rid of him doesnt even take into account Simmons value.

    In my mind the 6ers would be insane to trade for Wall. But Iím just entertaining the rumour.

    I was trying to gauge what War would think could be a reasonable deal.. He did respond with a counter it was essentially the same deal he proposed with KPJ included instead of Tate and House. Not sure if you caught that. But here it is below

    Quote Originally Posted by warfelg View Post
    Wall, KPJ, 2 1sts, 2 swaps
    for
    Simmons, Korkmaz

    At this point Wall is a negative asset. Costs at least a 1st to move him. This would effectively by KPJ and a 1st for Simmons, with Kork and Wall to make salary work.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-20-2021 at 07:40 PM.

  4. #1864
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I'm curious. So you've had a lot of time to think about a possible Simmons tradeówhat is a realistic and fair expectation on a return for you? I'm not saying that the package you're passing on here is a slam dunk. It's not. John Wall is a below average starting point guard with banged up knees playing on the worst contract in the league. I get it.

    But getting three swaps from a team like Houston would be HUGE if you're Philly. You're talking about a difference of probably 10-15 picks in at least 1-2 of those drafts. And on top of that, Tate is a legit player who could contribute to a contending team tomorrow. If Draymond Green was 6'4", he'd be Jae'Sean Tate. House is also a guy who could contribute; he's just coming off a season in which he was banged up most of the year.

    So if 2 unprotected first and 3 swaps from a lottery team, plus a competent veteran point guard and two quality youngish forwards aren't enough, what would you want out of a trade for Simmons? And is it at all realistic that you'd actually get it?
    Strongly disagree on the swaps. Depending how it's structured, you're 3 to 5 years away from some of those swaps. Simmons is a great regular season player. Wood is a solid player. If green is anywhere close to as advertised, that team could be good very soon. And that's not considering KPJ (who I'm apparently much lower on than some rockets fans who I think might be way overboard on him) or any of the picks this year.

    Plus, that team still has a decent amount of picks and you've takem away their incentive for tanking. Do you not think they'd be looking to move some of those picks they still have to veteran or even decent youngish players? They absolutely would consider that and could easily be a playoff team sooner rather than later.

  5. #1865
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    Maybe I'm just way off base, but I think alot of folks on this forum forget how good Simmons is in the regular season. He's a really good player. His all star appearances may have been a tiny bit due to name recognition, but he was at least close to deserving if not entirely deserving. He needs to be better in the playoffs and you need to scheme him in the playoffs, but he's not a garbage player. To think you wouldn't give up Kevin porter, who has a small sample size of being a decent but wildly inefficient scorer is absurd.

  6. #1866
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Strongly disagree on the swaps. Depending how it's structured, you're 3 to 5 years away from some of those swaps. Simmons is a great regular season player. Wood is a solid player. If green is anywhere close to as advertised, that team could be good very soon. And that's not considering KPJ (who I'm apparently much lower on than some rockets fans who I think might be way overboard on him) or any of the picks this year.

    Plus, that team still has a decent amount of picks and you've takem away their incentive for tanking. Do you not think they'd be looking to move some of those picks they still have to veteran or even decent youngish players? They absolutely would consider that and could easily be a playoff team sooner rather than later.
    Donít forget about Sengun

  7. #1867
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Maybe I'm just way off base, but I think alot of folks on this forum forget how good Simmons is in the regular season. He's a really good player. His all star appearances may have been a tiny bit due to name recognition, but he was at least close to deserving if not entirely deserving. He needs to be better in the playoffs and you need to scheme him in the playoffs, but he's not a garbage player. To think you wouldn't give up Kevin porter, who has a small sample size of being a decent but wildly inefficient scorer is absurd.
    Not sure who youíre quoting here but Iíve been echoing the same sentiments about Simmons not going for **** on a stick. And my trade proposal was simply cantered around Wall & picks and players I thought could contribute to winning now who donít make a ton of money because walls contract is already so bloated.

    With respect to KPJ, he was a huge advocate for Green and the Rockets picking him at 2. So I personally donít think the Rockets wanna split that pairing up, and will try to see what they have with that back court.

    I think Simmons fits Green/KPJ/Wood skill sets so Iíd be for the trade, I think it would be a good addition to the core. But Iím still not sure why the 6ers even want Wall or what we could possibly add to make it worth their while. Really KPJ is not ready to help a contender so I wouldnít understand why they would even want him. Aside from Gordon/Wood who are making to much to include in the deal, Iím not seeing what else we could include. Iím certain Porter Jr isnt the piece to put them over. Nor do I think itís even the piece Morey would want.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-20-2021 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #1868
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    Well the Kings did have literally the worst Drtg in NBA history last season...so there's that. Having an all league level multi-purpose defender to plug up gaps at the 4 could be huge. Still not sure if it's worth it for the Kings, but I see the appeal.
    I think if any team is a good fit for Simmons, it's the Kings, but I think the return needs to be right and the pieces need to be right. Nobody has more unnecessary point guards than Sacramento, and they could 100% use Simmons in their front court.

    Also let's stop pretending that Morey is dumb enough to consider washed, overpaid John Wall lol. Only scenario that happens is if there's a third team to dump him and all the picks to in order to get an actual needle mover.
    I don't, though. I think a deal of Simmons for Wall is insanely unlikely, and I don't take any of these rumors seriously. I agree that it would take a third team and some pretty big concessions on the asking prices for both Philly and Houston. On top of that, there's clearly some tension between Morey and Rockets' management.

    I'm just talking hypothetically because it's fun to talk about, there's rumors and there's not much else to discuss in the NBA world for the next couple of weeks. I fully expect both guys will be on their rosters when training camp starts and likely when the regular season starts.


  9. #1869
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Strongly disagree on the swaps. Depending how it's structured, you're 3 to 5 years away from some of those swaps. Simmons is a great regular season player. Wood is a solid player. If green is anywhere close to as advertised, that team could be good very soon. And that's not considering KPJ (who I'm apparently much lower on than some rockets fans who I think might be way overboard on him) or any of the picks this year.

    Plus, that team still has a decent amount of picks and you've takem away their incentive for tanking. Do you not think they'd be looking to move some of those picks they still have to veteran or even decent youngish players? They absolutely would consider that and could easily be a playoff team sooner rather than later.
    If you think I'm high on KPJ, you should check out ClutchFans, a well-known Rockets forum in Houston. Those guys go ******* over KPJ. I'm cautiously optimistic. He's got to be a more consistent 3-point shooter, cut down on his turnovers and improve his shot selection. He's also a pretty poor defender right now, and the off-the-court stuff is always a concern (although I feel a lot better about it than I did when he was first acquired).

    But the offensive skillset is pretty ridiculous. His offensive game honestly reminds me a lot of Harden. And he just came off a stretch where he averaged essentially 16/7/4 at age 20. We can't ignore that, even if he's inefficient. If a rookie did what he did last season over a 50-60 game stretch, he'd be a lock for Rookie of the Year most seasons.

    Maybe I'm just way off base, but I think alot of folks on this forum forget how good Simmons is in the regular season. He's a really good player. His all star appearances may have been a tiny bit due to name recognition, but he was at least close to deserving if not entirely deserving. He needs to be better in the playoffs and you need to scheme him in the playoffs, but he's not a garbage player. To think you wouldn't give up Kevin porter, who has a small sample size of being a decent but wildly inefficient scorer is absurd.
    I don't think he's a garbage player. Far from it. But he's overpaid for what he does, his attitude stinks and he's a huge offensive liability in the playoffs in his current role. If he made the same amount as Porter, obviously it's no contest. But I also think Simmons has pretty much hit his ceiling and hasn't given us any reason to think he's going to get much better. Porter's floor is obviously miles below Simmons, but he's given us reason to believe his ceiling is higher, he makes about 1/20th what Simmons makes, and he's four years younger.

    Would I trade Porter straight up for Simmons right now? Yes, in a heartbeat. Would I trade Porter and multiple first round draft picks for Simmons right now? No.


  10. #1870
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    If you think I'm high on KPJ, you should check out ClutchFans, a well-known Rockets forum in Houston. Those guys go ******* over KPJ. I'm cautiously optimistic. He's got to be a more consistent 3-point shooter, cut down on his turnovers and improve his shot selection. He's also a pretty poor defender right now, and the off-the-court stuff is always a concern (although I feel a lot better about it than I did when he was first acquired).

    But the offensive skillset is pretty ridiculous. His offensive game honestly reminds me a lot of Harden. And he just came off a stretch where he averaged essentially 16/7/4 at age 20. We can't ignore that, even if he's inefficient. If a rookie did what he did last season over a 50-60 game stretch, he'd be a lock for Rookie of the Year most seasons.


    I don't think he's a garbage player. Far from it. But he's overpaid for what he does, his attitude stinks and he's a huge offensive liability in the playoffs in his current role. If he made the same amount as Porter, obviously it's no contest. But I also think Simmons has pretty much hit his ceiling and hasn't given us any reason to think he's going to get much better. Porter's floor is obviously miles below Simmons, but he's given us reason to believe his ceiling is higher, he makes about 1/20th what Simmons makes, and he's four years younger.

    Would I trade Porter straight up for Simmons right now? Yes, in a heartbeat. Would I trade Porter and multiple first round draft picks for Simmons right now? No.
    But the exact offensive profile you described has arguably the tiniest margin for error of any player type. Harden only works because of his unprecedented efficiency. Like if you're even 80% of Harden, that guy can be a liability.

    KPJ shot 31% from 3. That's not good and that's not really all thst close to being good either for the type of player he is. He's not a very good defender and unless you pair him with a big pg who can defend off guards, he's probably never going to be a great defender. He was a decent oasser, but that went with pretty high turnover marks. And his numbers were over a pretty small sample size on a really bad team that just let him do whatever.

    And the flipside to your argument is what if those 20 games he played was the peak? What if he played 60 games and wasn't great but had a random 20 game strerch mid year where he was his 16/7/4? You probably wouldn't remember it. If I was a fan of his team I'd be cautiously optimistic about him, but to not include him even with multiple firsts in a deal that includes a player of Simmons caliber is dumb to me and ignores the somewhat plausible scenario where he just isn't a good player.

  11. #1871
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    Ben Simmons to the Houston Rockets for John Wall...trade one bad contract for another

  12. #1872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    Ben Simmons to the Houston Rockets for John Wall...trade one bad contract for another
    na id rather keep the 14/7/7 guy on 10 shots per game with all world defense over the 20/7/3 guy with no defense who takes 19 shots to get his 20 points... give me the 25 year old with 4 more years of service.... what are you on?

  13. #1873
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    na id rather keep the 14/7/7 guy on 10 shots per game with all world defense over the 20/7/3 guy with no defense who takes 19 shots to get his 20 points... give me the 25 year old with 4 more years of service.... what are you on?
    I'm on the fact that if Simmons were to end up in Houston, they instantly become a better team especially if you pair Simmons up with Jalen Green in Houston along with the young players they have in KPJ, KJ Martin, Tate, Christian Wood, etc. they become a play in team at best or even a borderline playoff team with Simmons there. Defensively he would make Houston a better team. Plus offensively if they center the offense around Simmons if he were to end up in Houston and then he all of a sudden were to ball out, then could you imagine? Plus Simmons he could use the change of scenery.

    Plus Wall at this point is a better PG than Simmons especially on the offensive side of the basketball. Defensively I will give you Simmons is better but as a point guard you not only need to be a facilitator and initiate the offense but you need to be able to shoot. Simmons cannot shoot. Don't even get me started on his free throw percentage. His game is predicated on passing and slashing his way to the basket where he can easily get hacked. Send him to the line and he isn't all that effective.

  14. #1874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tg11 View Post
    I'm on the fact that if Simmons were to end up in Houston, they instantly become a better team especially if you pair Simmons up with Jalen Green in Houston along with the young players they have in KPJ, KJ Martin, Tate, Christian Wood, etc. they become a play in team at best or even a borderline playoff team with Simmons there. Defensively he would make Houston a better team. Plus offensively if they center the offense around Simmons if he were to end up in Houston and then he all of a sudden were to ball out, then could you imagine? Plus Simmons he could use the change of scenery.

    Plus Wall at this point is a better PG than Simmons especially on the offensive side of the basketball. Defensively I will give you Simmons is better but as a point guard you not only need to be a facilitator and initiate the offense but you need to be able to shoot.
    Simmons cannot shoot. Don't even get me started on his free throw percentage. His game is predicated on passing and slashing his way to the basket where he can easily get hacked. Send him to the line and he isn't all that effective.
    holy **** where? where is wall better than simmons? him taking 19 shots to score 20 points compared to ben taking 10 shots to score 14? wall shooting a miserable 40/31/75?

    yes ben doesnt shoot 3s or hit fts but holy **** shooting just to shoot is worse.... wall takes 19 shots a game and shoots 40 pct.... that isnt better people goddamn

    so now you are trading a guy that shoots 10 times which takes 9 shots away from joel and others for a guy who shoots 9 shots more a game at 40 percent for a mere 6 points?
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 09-21-2021 at 09:39 AM.

  15. #1875
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    Simmons cannot shoot point blank period and yet you still wanna keep him around. Make that make sense to me BRUH. He can't shoot 3s or hell can he even shoot mid range? Yeah he can in open runs in gyms working out with other NBA players in the off season but so what? I don't give a damn about any of that. How about proving you can do that in actual NBA games and then come talk to me. How about being more aggressive on offense and on defense before you can even say Simmons is elite as a point guard. He isn't elite to me. Yeah a PG needs to not only be able to pass and play defense but he needs to be able to shoot and be able to score efficiently.

    Simmons just ain't it. He never will be. Unless he gets the hell out of Philly but will even that make a damn bit of difference? Simmons is what he is and he's heading into what his 6th year in this league. If he won't change his ways now, he never will.

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