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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    Just because you have people who agree with you doesn't make either of you right. The notion that paying people a living wage and providing universal healthcare are fringe radical left ideas is flat wrong. They are not. Explain to me how every other nation on earth spends less money per person on healthcare than the we do and still manages to cover everyone? I don't want to hear anything about how impossible of an idea it is, I want an answer to that question. We both know you can't give a good answer to that question.

    The fact that it's considered "extreme" or "far left" to call out corruption is preposterous. You keep trying to minimize what I'm saying by claiming I don't understand politics, but what you apparently don't understand is that our current two-party system has ripped our country to shreds. You know the founders never wanted us to have these major political parties right? They considered them to be corrupt relics of a failed system of government (the British government at the time).
    Like I said as well.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I think this one is the most important point to swat back on every time it comes up. Because it's the most dangerous to the party and country. There is some misconception that the Democratic party is this far-left party that if it just weren't for those rascally moderates that we would have Medicare-For-All, $15 minimum wage, and every other pipe dream of the far-left.

    The fact is that this country is very near the center and floats back and forth between the center-left and center-right. If it were far-left or far-right, then we would never see a member of one of the two major parties get elected president.
    That $15/hour pipe dream got more votes in Florida than Donald Trump. Supporting a living wage will lead to political success and that fact alone proves how wrong you are. You're embarrassing yourself.
    Last edited by TylerSL; 06-13-2021 at 05:21 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Like I said as well.
    You're right about what you said, we need people to stop excusing this insane two party system that was built on corruption. We're literally eating ourselves.

    And climate change IS looming.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    You're right about what you said, we need people to stop excusing this insane two party system that was built on corruption. We're literally eating ourselves.

    And climate change IS looming.
    I agree, but what is anyone doing about it? See any real movements to vote all the old bought codgers out of office or a serious effort to start a third party? I am an old cripple, but I would still financially support and lend my voice and vote.

    I know, we need a vote out the politicians video game.

  5. #50
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    Please, don't listen to the progressive, BLM, or leftists and continue doing what you been doing. It is we are delusional. Keep ignoring the growing discontent in this country.

    Really quit your bit ching you got the progressive vote to get your boy in. Man, and here you are ragging on them afterward. That really gives me extra incentives to vote democrat the next time. I think I will just have a Snicker bar instead. More satisfying, less dissing our issues.
    Last edited by WES445; 06-13-2021 at 05:32 PM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue6 View Post
    I agree, but what is anyone doing about it? See any real movements to vote all the old bought codgers out of office or a serious effort to start a third party? I am an old cripple, but I would still financially support and lend my voice and vote.

    I know, we need a vote out the politicians video game.
    Honestly we can't start a third party because laws were made to protect the current system. We have to continue to vote out these bums to scare the rest into falling in line. If they think they'll get voted out if they vote against healthcare and climate change, they won't do it. We start by getting corporate money out of politics.
    Last edited by TylerSL; 06-13-2021 at 05:37 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    Just because you have people who agree with you doesn't make either of you right. The notion that paying people a living wage and providing universal healthcare are fringe radical left ideas is flat wrong. They are not. Explain to me how every other nation on earth spends less money per person on healthcare than the we do and still manages to cover everyone? I don't want to hear anything about how impossible of an idea it is, I want an answer to that question. We both know you can't give a good answer to that question.

    The fact that it's considered "extreme" or "far left" to call out corruption is preposterous. You keep trying to minimize what I'm saying by claiming I don't understand politics, but what you apparently don't understand is that our current two-party system has ripped our country to shreds. You know the founders never wanted us to have these major political parties right? They considered them to be corrupt relics of a failed system of government (the British government at the time). Maybe we should vote out the bums, and these politicians are bums, who have contributed to this mess.
    They aren't fringe radical ideas. Biden is for Universal healthcare. He's just for the Public Option. Something the Democratic party has been for since Obama.

    See this is why you have no idea what you're talking about. You've somehow talked yourself into the opinion that only progressives are for a nationalized healthcare system. When Obama had to literally have a senator switch sides in order to get the healthcare system we have now passed, which isn't nationalized. (Obama himself has stated many times that he was for a single payer system, but thought the public option was more politically viable which I agree with based on the data available from multiple studies).

    And if you are for living wages why aren't you ecstatic about the child tax credit? Which is a much more effective way of balancing wages for the working class than raising the minimum wage which will just inevitably lead to higher costs of living. It won't increase the living standard nearly as much as you seem to think, tax credits are a much better way of doing this.

    Almost every Democracy in the world eventually moves to a 2 party system whether they wan to or not, especially in regards to federal elections. And if we were going to have a multi party system why would the left not be an actually left wing party like they have in a lot of European countries? You know like a SOcialist or Communist party? You guys keep saying "America has Moderate political parties" but then seem to not understand that a true "leftist party" is at the very least anti-cap/pro socialist.

    If you want a public option and you want to avoid the filibuster I suggest pushing for more Democrats elected to the House and especially the Senate so we can push a nationalized healthcare system. IF you think Biden stepping down from the presidency brings us anywhere closer to a nationalized system of healthcare you are, again, delusional.
    Last edited by MRSpock; 06-13-2021 at 05:47 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    They aren't fringe radical ideas. Biden is for Universal healthcare. He's just for the Public Option. Something the Democratic party has been for since Obama.

    See this is why you have no idea what you're talking about. You've somehow talked yourself into the opinion that only progressives are for a nationalized healthcare system. When Obama had to literally have a senator switch sides in order to get the healthcare system we have now passed, which isn't nationalized. (Obama himself has stated many times that he was for a single payer system, but thought the public option was more politically viable which I agree with based on the data available from multiple studies).

    And if you are for living wages why aren't you ecstatic about the child tax credit? Which is a much more effective way of balancing wages for the working class than raising the minimum wage which will just inevitably lead to higher costs of living. It won't increase the living standard nearly as much as you seem to think, tax credits are a much better way of doing this.

    Almost every Democracy in the world eventually moves to a 2 party system whether they wan to or not, especially in regards to federal elections. And if we were going to have a multi party system why would the left not be an actually left wing party like they have in a lot of European countries? You know like a SOcialist or Communist party? You guys keep saying "America has Moderate political parties" but then seem to not understand that a true "leftist party" is at the very least anti-cap/pro socialist.

    If you want a public option and you want to avoid the filibuster I suggest pushing for more Democrats elected to the House and especially the Senate so we can push a nationalized healthcare system. IF you think Biden stepping down from the presidency brings us anywhere closer to a nationalized system of healthcare you are, again, delusional.
    So wait, I'm supposed to just be OK with this corrupt system because everyone does it, whether they want to or not? That makes no sense. You realize we have laws that limit third parties right? Do you know the lengths the Democratic Party went through to suppress the Green Party in the 2020 election?

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../gree-a24.html

    I'm guessing you blame progressives for the Democrats losing seats in the House in 2020, but you should probably know that progressives had no trouble winning their races, even with millions of dollars in corporate money opposing them. It was the "centrists" that had trouble winning. Maybe upholding a blatantly corrupt system that does next to nothing for workers isn't a winning strategy?
    Last edited by TylerSL; 06-13-2021 at 06:14 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue6 View Post
    I agree, but what is anyone doing about it? See any real movements to vote all the old bought codgers out of office or a serious effort to start a third party? I am an old cripple, but I would still financially support and lend my voice and vote.

    I know, we need a vote out the politicians video game.
    Agree, it won't happen. People are really afraid of change and will keep running back to the same corrupt politicians out of tribal loyalty. They ain't getting off the train.

    they won't have my support.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    So wait, I'm supposed to just be OK with this corrupt system because everyone does it, whether they want to or not? That makes no sense. You realize we have laws that limit third parties right? Do you know the lengths the Democratic Party went through to suppress the Green Party in the 2020 election?

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../gree-a24.html

    I'm guessing you blame progressives for the Democrats losing seats in the House in 2020, but you should probably know that progressives had no trouble winning their races, even with millions of dollars in corporate money opposing them. It was the "centrists" that had trouble winning.
    Yup, we are delusional for not supporting a corrupt system. They even berate those who don't support it.
    Last edited by WES445; 06-13-2021 at 06:12 PM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    So wait, I'm supposed to just be OK with this corrupt system because everyone does it, whether they want to or not? That makes no sense. You realize we have laws that limit third parties right? Do you know the lengths the Democratic Party went through to suppress the Green Party in the 2020 election?

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../gree-a24.html

    I'm guessing you blame progressives for the Democrats losing seats in the House in 2020, but you should probably know that progressives had no trouble winning their races, even with millions of dollars in corporate money opposing them. It was the "centrists" that had trouble winning.
    Man why even quote me if you're just going to make up opinions for me, and address literally nothing I just said.

    This is why I rarely engage with the leftists on this site anymore, they're just as brain washed as the right. Can't have a conversation on any topic without going back to your same rhetorical conversation tactics. Because you can't go more than an inch deep on a topic, and can't source your opinions from anything but glorified bloggers posing as news.

  12. #57
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    The most interesting part of this debate is that on both sides the starting point is the same:

    Joe Biden is about the best you can expect, given the system.

    One side, though, says that he is the best you can expect, given the system, as if it is a good thing, and the other says that he is the best that you can expect, given the system, as if it is a bad thing.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    The most interesting part of this debate is that on both sides the starting point is the same:

    Joe Biden is about the best you can expect, given the system.

    One side, though, says that he is the best you can expect, given the system, as if it is a good thing, and the other says that he is the best that you can expect, given the system, as if it is a bad thing.
    Yes unfortunately in Democracies you have to make compromises and don't get to dictate what you want. Please let me know of a successful system of governance that doesn't seem to have this problem.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Man why even quote me if you're just going to make up opinions for me, and address literally nothing I just said.

    This is why I rarely engage with the leftists on this site anymore, they're just as brain washed as the right. Can't have a conversation on any topic without going back to your same rhetorical conversation tactics. Because you can't go more than an inch deep on a topic, and can't source your opinions from anything but glorified bloggers posing as news.
    You said "Everyone eventually goes to two-party system whether they want to or not" as if it's just something that happens. It isn't though because there are third and fourth and fifth parties in other countries, we just have laws that limit other parties here.

    I didn't address what you said on healthcare because we both know healthcare isn't going to be discussed in this entire two year congressional term. I'll spoil for you what's going to happen. They are going to spend the rest of the summer trying to pass infrastructure, but they won't. They will then take a hiatus and come back and try to get something done on immigration. That will take the rest of the year and they probably won't even accomplish that because they'll try to move so far to the right on it the progressives won't vote on it. The media and the Joe Manchin's of the world, and you apparently, will then blame the left for nothing getting done and we'll enter 2022 with nothing major passed. The GOP will be even less inclined to vote with us because it's an election year and McConnell will be laughing all the way because Democrats will have almost nothing to show for being in control of the legislative and executive branches of government. Biden can "be in favor of a public option" all he wants, when it goes unaddressed for an entire congressional cycle it will be apparent how little of a priority it ever was.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Yes unfortunately in Democracies you have to make compromises and don't get to dictate what you want. Please let me know of a successful system of governance that doesn't seem to have this problem.
    Can you explain to me why $15/hour minimum wage can't pass the Congress when it got more votes in the state of Florida than Donald Trump, who won the state? Is it because Senators hate getting votes or because they are paid to be against it?

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