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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    You have trouble following my post understand the gist behind my words and I the same with yours. We come from totally different worlds and experiences so let's just agree to disagree
    Well the gist of your posts actually seem concerning is what I am pointing out. We can agree to disagree if you want but if you were to keep posting like that I think many will be calling you out without more reasoning behind it.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You seem to constantly be calling out a general group in leftists/progressives, I shared one and can find more if needed. I haven't actually seen you coming to their defense very often at all, even like Sanders you weren't referencing positively earlier as an example of the politician face wise in comparison it was more to call a loser it seemed. If you will notice btw I am actually doing exactly this right now in responding to you and Wes on the topic saying you both are off base for doing similar things. If you want to see what it looks like talking to BOTH SIDES I am pretty sure that would be it...

    Also my initial/general response to this thread was it is too early and it's over the top to attack Biden for this. I am not sure if you are reading my responses to Wes or not but I am calling him out specifically as well on this. I called you each out for doing the same thing just at different groups (one leftists/progressives and the other moderates).
    Again you're unwilling to recognize that one of these groups IS consisted of leftists. ANd the other ISN'T a Moderate. So even your comparison isn't even applicable (although I can't speak for DBroncos, I'm guessing he's for a progressive agenda as well just isn't a ****in psycho).

    And the reason we do this is for COMPLETELY different reasons. I use this ACCURATE terms to group together the posters that normally post this type of garbage. I'm being called a moderate in a way to discount my position. Even though I'm probably for just as far left positions as they are I'm just not completely politically illiterate. They want to paint the picture that I'm for Biden because we're both Moderates. But in reality I'm for Biden because he has shown to be pushing PROGRESSIVE polices.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Well the gist of your posts actually seem concerning is what I am pointing out. We can agree to disagree if you want but if you were to keep posting like that I think many will be calling you out without more reasoning behind it.
    How about we wait until the dust settles and see who has a better grip on the situation. Call me out all of you but if Biden isn't successful for whatever reason, then my call was right. If he does, I will be the first to happily said I was wrong, and he having the most progressive administration since FDR. You don't know how much I wish I am wrong about him on climate change especially. Bet you I will be right.

    The republicans and trumpsters have been calling me out or playing gotta you games with me all thru Trump's term, I ain't worry about the moderates doing the same, now. They are both tribes supporting a corrupt system.

    When do you think the bill will be finish and pass? Before summer recess or after?
    Last edited by WES445; 06-16-2021 at 12:48 AM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Again you're unwilling to recognize that one of these groups IS consisted of leftists. ANd the other ISN'T a Moderate.
    I having trouble as well with his "labeling" stance as you can see in my post.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Again you're unwilling to recognize that one of these groups IS consisted of leftists. ANd the other ISN'T a Moderate. So even your comparison isn't even applicable (although I can't speak for DBroncos, I'm guessing he's for a progressive agenda as well just isn't a ****in psycho).

    And the reason we do this is for COMPLETELY different reasons. I use this ACCURATE terms to group together the posters that normally post this type of garbage. I'm being called a moderate in a way to discount my position. Even though I'm probably for just as far left positions as they are I'm just not completely politically illiterate. They want to paint the picture that I'm for Biden because we're both Moderates. But in reality I'm for Biden because he has shown to be pushing PROGRESSIVE polices.
    Again though look at the posting, most clearly recognize issues with left/progressives and specific representatives being talked about a certain way compared to others (more dbroncos here and Sanders comments in past that have been noted but just explaining overall). Seemingly backing moderate candidates and ranting about leftists/progressives. Even if you don't fit the label being used they certainly don't agree with your description of the group so it still isn't really better that bad aspect of group labels in negative ways they don't agree with is there either way.

    And when it comes to perceptions of Biden’s ideology, 42 percent of Americans identify the president as moderate; 29 percent say he’s “very liberal”; 15 percent believe he’s “somewhat liberal”; and a combined 8 percent say he’s conservative.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...ymoon-n1265199

    https://today.yougov.com/topics/poli...biden-moderate
    Moderates and further left see Joe as a Moderate, Conservatives see him as further left

    Also for reference the idea Biden is moderate is quite common across the country. There is more of a mix no doubt but I think it's the most common choice if people have to pick.

    I disagree. I think the term is moreso based on how people view the posting and that's what yours seems more like moderate than left/progressive. You constantly are bashing the groups but when you say accurate I disagree I think you go over the top to make leftists/progressives "psycho" or "politically illiterate" or multiple other posts I can quote I just used terms right here lol you do this to an extreme. You are just complaining more about the semantics than the actual bad aspect of labeling a group and defining them in negative terms repeatedly in whatever term it may be. Moderate or Progressive or Conservative isn't necessarily bad. You bash one hard so there are only two other options... Which do you prefer people use to describe you moving forward?

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    How about we wait until the dust settles and see who has a better grip on the situation. Call me out all of you but if Biden isn't successful for whatever reason, then my call was right. If he does, I will be the first to happily said I was wrong, and he having the most progressive administration since FDR. You don't know how much I wish I am wrong about him on climate change especially. Bet you I will be right.

    The republicans and trumpsters have been calling me out or playing gotta you games with me all thru Trump's term, I ain't worry about the moderates doing the same, now. They are both tribes supporting a corrupt system.

    When do you think the bill will be finish and pass? Before summer recess or after?
    I am not sure which specific bill? I also don't get the relevance. I am not even sure the voting one passes but it sounds like they may take steps towards getting some done with reconciliation.

    I think there is another tribe as well and you kind of seem to be acting in a similar way and attacking and playing gotcha games is what I am noting. I mostly agree with your takes on what is likely to happen given context and you are making it seem like one of us doesn't have a grip on the situation or it's a we will see when that isn't my point at all.

    You seem to be going at moderates in a similar way they go at you has been my point though. Do you have an issue with people acting like a tribe member?

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am not sure which specific bill? I also don't get the relevance. I am not even sure the voting one passes but it sounds like they may take steps towards getting some done with reconciliation.

    I think there is another tribe as well and you kind of seem to be acting in a similar way and attacking and playing gotcha games is what I am noting. I mostly agree with your takes on what is likely to happen given context and you are making it seem like one of us doesn't have a grip on the situation or it's a we will see when that isn't my point at all.

    You seem to be going at moderates in a similar way they go at you has been my point though. Do you have an issue with people acting like a tribe member?
    Everybody associates with a tribe as in an ethnic group, political groups, family, friends, work, or sports teams. Of course, I am a part of a tribe, the one who won't support the system our two political tribes here do.

    If you are having trouble getting your point across to two posters who often bump heads and don't agree on many things except the fact we don't get where you are coming from, maybe you should sit back and regroup to explain yourself better so we can at least understand a little bit of what you are trying to express.

    Right now MRSPOCK is getting upset with you, and I think you are talking some philosophical gibberish with no connection to reality.

    The infrastructure bill, I don't think any other bill has been mention to cause your confusion.
    Last edited by WES445; 06-16-2021 at 01:43 AM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Again though look at the posting, most clearly recognize issues with left/progressives and specific representatives being talked about a certain way compared to others (more dbroncos here and Sanders comments in past that have been noted but just explaining overall). Seemingly backing moderate candidates and ranting about leftists/progressives. Even if you don't fit the label being used they certainly don't agree with your description of the group so it still isn't really better that bad aspect of group labels in negative ways they don't agree with is there either way.

    And when it comes to perceptions of Biden’s ideology, 42 percent of Americans identify the president as moderate; 29 percent say he’s “very liberal”; 15 percent believe he’s “somewhat liberal”; and a combined 8 percent say he’s conservative.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/mee...ymoon-n1265199

    https://today.yougov.com/topics/poli...biden-moderate
    Moderates and further left see Joe as a Moderate, Conservatives see him as further left

    Also for reference the idea Biden is moderate is quite common across the country. There is more of a mix no doubt but I think it's the most common choice if people have to pick.

    I disagree. I think the term is moreso based on how people view the posting and that's what yours seems more like moderate than left/progressive. You constantly are bashing the groups but when you say accurate I disagree I think you go over the top to make leftists/progressives "psycho" or "politically illiterate" or multiple other posts I can quote I just used terms right here lol you do this to an extreme. You are just complaining more about the semantics than the actual bad aspect of labeling a group and defining them in negative terms repeatedly in whatever term it may be. Moderate or Progressive or Conservative isn't necessarily bad. You bash one hard so there are only two other options... Which do you prefer people use to describe you moving forward?
    Not even true.

    You can be a socialist. A SocDem or a DemSoc. A Euro libertarian. An anarcho communist. An anarch capitalist. An American Libertarian. A marxist lenninist (tankie).

    This is such a rudimentary understanding of the political spectrum.

    I consider myself a Social Democrat. As i believen in a mixed capitalist based economy.

    "Progressives" are not the arbitors of what does or does not fall into this category.

    And i could care less what the public thinks Biden is. Im looking at the policies hes trying to pass.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Everybody associates with a tribe as in an ethnic group, political groups, family, friends, work, or sports teams. Of course, I am a part of a tribe, the one who won't support the system our two political tribes here do.

    If you are having trouble getting your point across to two posters who often bump heads and don't agree on many things except the fact we don't get where you are coming., maybe you should sit back and regroup to explain yourself better so we can at least understand a little bit of what you are trying to express.

    Right now MRSPOCK is getting upset with you, and I think you are talking some philosophical gibberish.
    Of course but the issue is when you are so extremely tied to the team that you start labeling it us vs others. Attacking others in team form more just to attack the team not due to any real context based on what is happening now with specific individuals in current context. Just looking for ways to bash the other tribes in a general form moreso.

    That's what you and Mr. Spock both seem to be doing. You are not really listening to basics about how politics work or what is going on currently and are focused on bashing the moderate. He has multiple posts just labeling what leftists/progressives here in a way I and multiple others unrelated to his conversations often would disagree with (except the ones I noted with him).

    I am calling you out specifically for acting like one of the more extreme tribe members only focused on playing gotcha and attacking other tribes. Not so much looking to have an honest conversation or wait to see the context and what actually happens before making judgements. Just rush to conclusions to bash.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Not even true.

    You can be a socialist. A SocDem or a DemSoc. A Euro libertarian. An anarcho communist. An anarch capitalist. An American Libertarian. A marxist lenninist (tankie).

    This is such a rudimentary understanding of the political spectrum.

    I consider myself a Social Democrat. As i believen in a mixed capitalist based economy.

    "Progressives" are not the arbitors of what does or does not fall into this category.

    And i could care less what the public thinks Biden is. Im looking at the policies hes trying to pass.
    Well if we are getting that specific I bet a lot of people would also want to be labeled in a much more specific way than you have lol. I am going with the basics given progressive/left and republicans were used in the post and moderates complained about. The polls I showed had 3 basic categories as well. Like I said you are just arguing semantics to argue.

    The issue is still the generalizing leftists/progressives in negative ways repeatedly. Whatever group you associate with it sure seems like you are very against those groups which can be very wide ranging if we want to get into the semantics. I know many progressives who might also consider themselves SocDems for example there is plenty of overlap when going into this.

    When you are clearly ranting about another group in that way it just looks like you are playing the typical "tribal game" Wes and I are discussing. I guess I am not sure why you do it but you are purposely focusing on semantics instead of addressing the actual issue.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am calling you out specifically for acting like one of the more extreme tribe members only focused on playing gotcha and attacking other tribes. Not so much looking to have an honest conversation or wait to see the context and what actually happens before making judgements. Just rush to conclusions to bash.
    And what would an honest conversation look like? Seriously, if I am not doing it, it might mean I don't know how to have an honest political conversation, so enlighten me.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    And what would an honest conversation look like? Seriously, if I am not doing it, it might mean I don't know how to have an honest political conversation, so enlighten me.
    I mean Valade noted it too, you were just seemingly ranting about his history etc. and not addressing the main points others were making. You started bringing up moderate posters within that conversation in the way mentioned (you mentioned my other conversation and it's just like Spock has with leftist/Progressive so I have called both out, I am not just focused on you as the progressive bad it is about the way you are arguing). I think if you saw someone of another team/tribe responding how you have throughout the thread you would call it out too.

    Even in our discussion I seemingly had to be repeating myself because my point most of the time was I don't disagree with a lot of your general take on said history or what should be expected. Even into that 2nd to last post you were seemingly playing gotcha though not realizing it due to the tribal game being played (even making up strawman arguments to me). You know what it looks like when some of the more extreme tribal members do this and that is what it was looking like from you. That's what I have been pointing out, sorry if it was poorly.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Well if we are getting that specific I bet a lot of people would also want to be labeled in a much more specific way than you have lol. I am going with the basics given progressive/left and republicans were used in the post and moderates complained about. The polls I showed had 3 basic categories as well. Like I said you are just arguing semantics to argue.

    The issue is still the generalizing leftists/progressives in negative ways repeatedly. Whatever group you associate with it sure seems like you are very against those groups which can be very wide ranging if we want to get into the semantics. I know many progressives who might also consider themselves SocDems for example there is plenty of overlap when going into this.

    When you are clearly ranting about another group in that way it just looks like you are playing the typical "tribal game" Wes and I are discussing. I guess I am not sure why you do it but you are purposely focusing on semantics instead of addressing the actual issue.
    These things arent just semantics. They harbor very different meanings.

    Hard to consider me a moderate when i have almost no moderate policy positions.

    No one actyally faces issues in this forum. Every deep dive conversation i try to have on any subject usually gets bogged down in rhetoric.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    These things arent just semantics. They harbor very different meanings.

    Hard to consider me a moderate when i have almost no moderate policy positions.

    No one actyally faces issues in this forum. Every deep dive conversation i try to have on any subject usually gets bogged down in rhetoric.
    Well of course and many people use the terms a little bit differently than others as well. That was my point that none of the specific labels are bad. That part is irrelevant you can be progressive/moderate/socdem/leftist/right/liberal/conservative or whatever and it just is describing some basic ideology but not everyone knows exactly what/why it's to generalize.

    When you start attacking the generalized groups when it might not really fit the whole but is more based on the individuals you are responding to that's the issue. It seems like you are playing that tribal team game as alluded to where leftist/progressives are bad.

    I think playing the tribal attacking games makes it tougher to have legitimate conversations. The way you have an issue with other calling you moderate, progressives/leftists have issues with your constant extreme rhetoric. You can just stop using it and it won't be so bogged down. The posts like I quoted are why you were the reference to come to mind so you were the example. It fit and your issue has been semantics over moderate which is irrelevant.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-16-2021 at 02:46 AM.

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I mean Valade noted it too, you were just seemingly ranting about his history etc. and not addressing the main points others were making. You started bringing up moderate posters within that conversation in the way mentioned (you mentioned my other conversation and it's just like Spock has with leftist/Progressive so I have called both out, I am not just focused on you as the progressive bad it is about the way you are arguing). I think if you saw someone of another team/tribe responding how you have throughout the thread you would call it out too.

    Even in our discussion I seemingly had to be repeating myself because my point most of the time was I don't disagree with a lot of your general take on said history or what should be expected. Even into that 2nd to last post you were seemingly playing gotcha though not realizing it due to the tribal game being played (even making up strawman arguments to me). You know what it looks like when some of the more extreme tribal members do this and that is what it was looking like from you. That's what I have been pointing out, sorry if it was poorly.
    Ok we are finished here, if I am not doing anything that can get me ban, I really don't care if you don't like how I conduct myself here. I don't care for either of you or Valade's limp wrist attitude about corruption and your exception of it. I do respect both of y'all even if you don't return it.

    Y'all aren't living in my community, so you don't feel the anger I feel about it continuing to deteriorate because of feckless democrat failures to change it. So leaving our issues on the back burner is expectable for you. No sense of urgency to correct it. And if Biden fails to address them, oh well we just couldn't get the vote. So I definitely don't consider you a ally as well as the moderates.

    That is why a lot of Blacks in my community don't think highly of moderates, thus the growth of progressive in the community, and some think voting is a joke because nothing will change. Please don't give me the incrementalism bs that some moderates have a push in the past. That didn't work in the past and it won't now with social issues and especially climate change.
    Last edited by WES445; 06-16-2021 at 02:53 AM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

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