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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    I never said he was corrupt. I said the system is corrupt and broken. Biden's past political policies make me not trust him. Taking corporate money is troublesome because businesses don't give money without expecting a return.
    Maybe they give them money because they support the policies they already have? Or because they believe the policies they're pushing will be beneficial to their business?

    Sure there is corruption in politics. But just making blatant accusations helps nothing.

    What system would you like to be in place of the one we have now?

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    He is a moderate.

    what makes you think he represents something outside his moderate value? He accepts big business donor money, that is something the progressives don't do.
    BTW I didn't see this.

    SO anyone who isn't a progressive is a Moderate?

    What a useless definition.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Let me put it another way if I cause confusion., Biden isn't going to change anything. He won't be a transformative president like you hope. I ran out of patience with the wall street dems. a long time ago. I didn't hold my nose to vote for him cause I vote for anybody but Biden and Trump. Now he pushing bi-partisanship with a party that is trying to change the voting process in their favor and has pissed on the constitution by denying Obama the presidential right to appoint a Supreme Court judge. That last is good enough to prove these republicans will not do bi-partisan in good faith. So he is proving he is stupid as well

    Nice. You play wait and see, that is your right. I am going to keep attacking moderate, Biden as I did Trump and republicans. y'all keep ignoring that the political system is corrupt, broken, and keep expecting it to make formative changes that go against their donor's wishes.

    I will say that his appointment to the Interior and Attorney General is good.
    We likely agree but do you think that someone else was very likely to make massive sweeping policies? I definitely agree he won't be transformative like I had initially hoped, that is why I voted for Bernie. None of this really addresses what specifically he has done now that got these responses. I am not here bashing leftists or progressives like some and I just pointed out how there are areas even right now to pressure him. That's different than blaming him for everything and never giving an actual chance to do good without attacking though.

    Attacking others as similar when they are far different doesn't make much sense. That's my point, we need to use context. Not assumptions or bets or anything like that but use context of what they have actually done. We are essentially in the early stages of getting an idea on that (when it comes to like infrastructure and HR1 at least). Using their identity as moderates and comparing to Trump and saying strawman like I am ignoring the system is corrupt isn't helpful. It's no different than what I call dbroncos and Mr Spock out for constantly doing this towards 'leftists" or "progressives" without clear reasoning or backing up what is saying.

    If you have context, use it but if you have that his identity is moderate and yada yada that's no different than anyone else on this site attacking leftists/progressives the same way using generalizations.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    We likely agree but do you think that someone else was very likely to make massive sweeping policies? I definitely agree he won't be transformative like I had initially hoped, that is why I voted for Bernie. None of this really addresses what specifically he has done now that got these responses. I am not here bashing leftists or progressives like some and I just pointed out how there are areas even right now to pressure him. That's different than blaming him for everything and never giving an actual chance to do good without attacking though.

    Attacking others as similar when they are far different doesn't make much sense. That's my point, we need to use context. Not assumptions or bets or anything like that but use context of what they have actually done. We are essentially in the early stages of getting an idea on that (when it comes to like infrastructure and HR1 at least). Using their identity as moderates and comparing to Trump and saying strawman like I am ignoring the system is corrupt isn't helpful. It's no different than what I call dbroncos and Mr Spock out for constantly doing this towards 'leftists" or "progressives" without clear reasoning or backing up what is saying.

    If you have context, use it but if you have that his identity is moderate and yada yada that's no different than anyone else on this site attacking leftists/progressives the same way using generalizations.
    This is such nonsense. Like this whole forum labels me and DBroncos as "Moderates" because we're not absolutely politically illiterate.

    But one of us mentions 'leftists' or 'progressives'... Terms that actually describe these people and we're being meanies, and how dare we.

    Just constantly on the offense, while playing the victim.
    Last edited by MRSpock; 06-15-2021 at 08:43 PM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Maybe they give them money because they support the policies they already have? Or because they believe the policies they're pushing will be beneficial to their business?
    A lot of maybe in two lines, partner.
    Sure there is corruption in politics. But just making blatant accusations helps nothing.

    What system would you like to be in place of the one we have now?
    First, you admit there is corruption and then diss me for accusing the system is corrupt.
    We have already established that my problems with Biden are more about his past deeds than any claims of corruption. So I don't know what the hell you talking about here.

    Something that posters here have been talking about getting money out of politics would be a good start. It isn't about picking a different system but fixing the one we do have.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    This is such nonsense. Like this whole thread labels me and DBroncos as "Moderates" because we're not absolutely politically illiterate.

    But one of us mentions 'leftists' or 'progressives'... Terms that actually describe these people and we're being meanies, and how dare we.

    Just constantly on the offense, while playing the victim.
    First of all the last time we had a back and forth you ranted to me about leftists and used Manram as an example. I gave specific context of my conversation with Dbroncos doing everything you claimed was bad and you ran away from that conversation in the end. This isn't even close to a one time thing with you but even in this thread you seemed to

    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Man why even quote me if you're just going to make up opinions for me, and address literally nothing I just said.

    This is why I rarely engage with the leftists on this site anymore, they're just as brain washed as the right. Can't have a conversation on any topic without going back to your same rhetorical conversation tactics. Because you can't go more than an inch deep on a topic, and can't source your opinions from anything but glorified bloggers posing as news.
    Here is just one quick example from this thread of your claiming you can't talk to leftists on this site brainwashed yada yada. I am pointing out a reality and you seem to be trying to play victim if anything.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    First of all the last time we had a back and forth you ranted to me about leftists and used Manram as an example. I gave specific context of my conversation with Dbroncos doing everything you claimed was bad and you ran away from that conversation in the end. This isn't even close to a one time thing with you but even in this thread you seemed to



    Here is just one quick example from this thread of your claiming you can't talk to leftists on this site brainwashed yada yada. I am pointing out a reality and you seem to be trying to play victim if anything.
    Every argument I've ever had with you involves you starting at one position then backpedaling from your original claim, and trying to sell me that we "agree'd all along".

    Happened in the thread about the 13 year old that got killed by the cop, and in the AOC thread in regards to the value of a house as an investment.

    I don't get it. You quoted me accurately describing the leftists on this forum.

    Can you point out how I'm a moderate? No? Didn't think so. I'm properly using a label while you guys are trying to devalue my input by slapping a label on me.

    And give me a ****in break. I'm playing the victim by calling out your inconsistent finger waving? Lol STFU. Asking for you to be consistent is not "playing the victim" it's pointing out that you're babying him by not holding him to the same standard that you apparently hold for everyone else.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    We likely agree but do you think that someone else was very likely to make massive sweeping policies? I definitely agree he won't be transformative like I had initially hoped, that is why I voted for Bernie. None of this really addresses what specifically he has done now that got these responses. I am not here bashing leftists or progressives like some and I just pointed out how there are areas even right now to pressure him. That's different than blaming him for everything and never giving him an actual chance to do good without attacking though.

    Attacking others as similar when they are far different doesn't make much sense. That's my point, we need to use context. Not assumptions or bets or anything like that but use context of what they have actually done. We are essentially in the early stages of getting an idea on that (when it comes to like infrastructure and HR1 at least). Using their identity as moderates and comparing to Trump and saying strawman like I am ignoring the system is corrupt isn't helpful. It's no different than what I call dbroncos and Mr Spock out for constantly doing this towards 'leftists" or "progressives" without clear reasoning or backing up what is saying.


    If you have context, use it but if you have that his identity is moderate and yada yada that's no different than anyone else on this site attacking leftists/progressives the same way using generalizations.
    I will just refer to the last sentence. Are you saying it is wrong to call him a moderate which he has been all his political career? Isn't his past action something that can be used to identify him by? If duck quack and swims all his life do I think he will change that behavior?

    Yes, people here know I am a gambler. Made good money betting on sports with unknowledgeable people. I was able to recognize trends and also study the teams. How teams do in rivalry, who is hurt, and how that would affect their team's chances to win but the one thing I learned is people always overestimate their home team and underestimate their team's opponent. I never bet on my home teams unless someone gives me outrageous odds.

    I am saying here and now the moderate posters are overestimating Biden's ability to make changes and underestimating the effect of donor money on the political system.

    No, I don't think anybody can change the course we on until we clean up the system itself, not Biden or anyone in the leadership position will do that. They benefit from the system so why would they be motivated to do so without outside pressure?
    Last edited by WES445; 06-15-2021 at 10:10 PM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Trump was a known commodity as well. You could be known for negatives reasons as well
    True but his known quality is understanding the voters in his state who other than him vote entirely Republican. He is the only Democrat elected member of the West Virginia congressional delegation. The man knows what he's doing and I will need to see him be defeated before I believe he will lose.
    Let's get embedded tweets working again!

    https://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sh...5#post33780085

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Every argument I've ever had with you involves you starting at one position then backpedaling from your original claim, and trying to sell me that we "agree'd all along".

    Happened in the thread about the 13 year old that got killed by the cop, and in the AOC thread in regards to the value of a house as an investment.

    I don't get it. You quoted me accurately describing the leftists on this forum.

    Can you point out how I'm a moderate? No? Didn't think so. I'm properly using a label while you guys are trying to devalue my input by slapping a label on me.

    And give me a ****in break. I'm playing the victim by calling out your inconsistent finger waving? Lol STFU. Asking for you to be consistent is not "playing the victim" it's pointing out that you're babying him by not holding him to the same standard that you apparently hold for everyone else.
    I have no idea what you are even going on about now, I was referencing specifics about your claims. I quoted you generalizing a group, just like Wes was doing posting about Moderates and I was calling out. That you exhibit the same behavior often is not my fault and the point still clearly stands based on your posting.

    I think the way you often attack leftists/progressives in group form in that manner while whining people call out moderates and establishment dems is likely what gives people the impression you like one and are against the other. Seems pretty obvious based on your posting in this manner actually. Can you show me examples of every leftists doing what you claim?

    I am pointing out that you seemingly tried whining as if I was making anything up when I was simply pointing out how you often post on this forum and the team games you seem to play.


    EDIT: Also LOL at you using the thread where you couldn't actually back up your stance and tried playing gotcha just to run away again when I showed my actual response to you from the start instead of your deflection from what I had been saying all along. This is the disingenuous BS you often do though and why I actually think most of the time you rant against Manram it actually applies to your own posting habits.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-15-2021 at 11:38 PM.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    I will just refer to the last sentence. Are you saying it is wrong to call him a moderate which he has been all his political career? Isn't his past action something that can be used to identify him by? If duck quack and swims all his life do I think he will change that behavior?

    Yes, people here know I am a gambler. Made good money betting on sports with unknowledgeable people. I was able to recognize trends and also study the teams. How teams do in rivalry, who is hurt, and how that would affect their team's chances to win but the one thing I learned is people always overestimate their home team and underestimate their team's opponent. I never bet on my home teams unless someone gives me outrageous odds.

    I am saying here and now the moderate posters are overestimating Biden's ability to make changes and underestimating the effect of donor money on the political system.

    No, I don't think anybody can change the course we on until we clean up the system itself, not Biden or anyone in the leadership position will do that. They benefit from the system so why would they be motivated to do so without outside pressure?
    I am not saying Biden is not a moderate, that is how he and his campaigns have largely presented themselves over the years so no issue there from me although he has been shifting at the very least in ways. Compared to Obama more Americans see him as moderate even with him being POTUS 10 years later and shifting his policy to match the party in a sense. There is a reason for this of course and that is his history.

    I have made money gambling as well I am not sure what this has to do with anything. I have acknowledged from the start what my guess/bet would be and it isn't much different than yours. I also have no association to Biden as some home team other than if the other team/option is Trump again of course (or someone clearly worse).

    However my point is that alone isn't a reason to attack him for what is happening currently and your guesses on the end outcome. Attacking someone for being a moderate and holding it against them for life isn't different than doing it for another identity/ideology based on the label. It isn't about moderate or leftists or progressives except for those of you focusing on those labels/groups. I think many have pointed out the logical reasons Biden alone can't just get things done magically more than any expectation he has the ability some are explaining how limited he will be without others on board which is different.

    So if no one will do that I just don't get this specific criticism of Biden/moderates if no one else could either. It just seems like you are angry at the system and venting towards one group/team. Not unlike others who have different opinions on the system and vent at other groups. I don't overly disagree with your main outlook at what's been happening but the specific reasons around Biden seem very weak and based on identity/group/team and little related to what is going on currently/what is possible.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I have no idea what you are even going on about now, I was referencing specifics about your claims. I quoted you generalizing a group, just like Wes was doing posting about Moderates and I was calling out. That you exhibit the same behavior often is not my fault and the point still clearly stands based on your posting.

    I think the way you often attack leftists/progressives in group form in that manner while whining people call out moderates and establishment dems is likely what gives people the impression you like one and are against the other. Seems pretty obvious based on your posting in this manner actually. Can you show me examples of every leftists doing what you claim?

    I am pointing out that you seemingly tried whining as if I was making anything up when I was simply pointing out how you often post on this forum and the team games you seem to play.


    EDIT: Also LOL at you using the thread where you couldn't actually back up your stance and tried playing gotcha just to run away again when I showed my actual response to you from the start instead of your deflection from what I had been saying all along. This is the disingenuous BS you often do though and why I actually think most of the time you rant against Manram it actually applies to your own posting habits.
    Team games I SEEM TO PLAY LOL!!!!

    I'm one of like 3-5 posters on this entire forum section that is willing to go to bat for his ideals and positions against BOTH sides. Not just the side that normally agrees with me.

    If a GOP poster were to make a thread with a similar title, he would be bashed to infinity by every lefty on this forum. But a few guys that you commonly agree with do it, and you get the kids gloves on.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am not saying Biden is not a moderate, that is how he and his campaigns have largely presented themselves over the years so no issue there from me although he has been shifting at the very least in ways. Compared to Obama more Americans see him as moderate even with him being POTUS 10 years later and shifting his policy to match the party in a sense. There is a reason for this of course and that is his history.

    I have made money gambling as well I am not sure what this has to do with anything. I have acknowledged from the start what my guess/bet would be and it isn't much different than yours. I also have no association to Biden as some home team other than if the other team/option is Trump again of course (or someone clearly worse).

    However my point is that alone isn't a reason to attack him for what is happening currently and your guesses on the end outcome. Attacking someone for being a moderate and holding it against them for life isn't different than doing it for another identity/ideology based on the label. It isn't about moderate or leftists or progressives except for those of you focusing on those labels/groups. I think many have pointed out the logical reasons Biden alone can't just get things done magically more than any expectation he has the ability some are explaining how limited he will be without others on board which is different.

    So if no one will do that I just don't get this specific criticism of Biden/moderates if no one else could either. It just seems like you are angry at the system and venting towards one group/team. Not unlike others who have different opinions on the system and vent at other groups. I don't overly disagree with your main outlook at what's been happening but the specific reasons around Biden seem very weak and based on identity/group/team and little related to what is going on currently/what is possible.
    You have trouble following what I am trying to express and I the same with yours. We come from totally different worlds and experiences so let's just agree to disagree.

    I don't distrust, in the present, Biden because he is moderate, but distrust him for his actions in the past. It has nothing to do with labeling. I expected and now seeing him backtrack on his infrastructure bill. Even those within his own party are threatening to not vote for the bill if he bows to the republican's demands to take out his climate change policies. This is in the present. It seems some of his own isn't too happy with him and instead of a wait-and-see approach, they are pressuring him to do the right thing.
    Last edited by WES445; 06-16-2021 at 12:30 AM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Team games I SEEM TO PLAY LOL!!!!

    I'm one of like 3-5 posters on this entire forum section that is willing to go to bat for his ideals and positions against BOTH sides. Not just the side that normally agrees with me.

    If a GOP poster were to make a thread with the similar title, he would be bashed to infinity by every lefty on this forum. But a few guys that you commonly agree with do it, and you get the kids gloves on.
    You seem to constantly be calling out a general group in leftists/progressives, I shared one and can find more if needed. I haven't actually seen you coming to their defense very often at all, even like Sanders you weren't referencing positively earlier as an example of the politician face wise in comparison it was more to call a loser it seemed. If you will notice btw I am actually doing exactly this right now in responding to you and Wes on the topic saying you both are off base for doing similar things. If you want to see what it looks like talking to BOTH SIDES I am pretty sure that would be it...

    Also my initial/general response to this thread was it is too early and it's over the top to attack Biden for this. I am not sure if you are reading my responses to Wes or not but I am calling him out specifically as well on this. I called you each out for doing the same thing just at different groups (one leftists/progressives and the other moderates).

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