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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Ok we are finished here, if I am not doing anything that can get me ban, I really don't care if you don't like how I conduct myself here. I don't care for either of you or Valade's limp wrist attitude about corruption and your exception of it. I do respect both of y'all even if you don't return it.

    Y'all aren't living in my community, so you don't feel the anger I feel about it continuing to deteriorate because of feckless democrat failures to change it. So leaving our issues on the back burner is expectable for you. No sense of urgency to correct it. And if Biden fails to address them, oh well we just couldn't get the vote. So I definitely don't consider you a ally as well as the moderates.

    That is why a lot of Blacks in my community don't think highly of moderates, thus the grow of progressive in the community, and think voting is a joke because nothing will change. Please don't give me the incrementalism bs that some moderates have a push in the past. That didn't work in the past and it won't know with social issues and especially climate change.
    It's not a moderation thing it is a common sense/double standards thing. You shouldn't get so mad at others if you are doing this yourself is the point.

    What specifically is my limp wrist and exception on corruption? Go into more detail please.

    I certainly am sick of democrats failing and think that is true of many communities although of course everyone's is different. I do not think it is acceptable I think we need to give time and then attack if necessary down the road once we have seen if/what gets done. Right now you just keep up the pressure to not give in to stalemates from Joe. Continue working locally if yours has been similar to mine (Twin cities right now might be a little different than others for sure). Not everything happens at once unfortunately no matte who is in charge it takes time as we covered.

    I agree we need to have change but it won't do any good to say my way or else either and pout. It also doesn't excuse playing the same games other tribes play if you call them out for it too. Many moderates as you would seemingly define the term want larger change on climate change as well. Again if nothing ends up happening then do this but we are 6 months in with a pandemic as the focus and Valade has laid out that a decent amount has been done as well even if far far far from enough. Keep up the pressure for more absolutely but the attacking moderates that way (when the term is broad and different for many) is no different than others attacking others in group form due to their own certain perceptions not it necessarily fitting. You know it happens from "other tribes" towards you as you noted, I have seen you call it out before too.

  2. #272
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    Who cares what Joe Biden is? Moderate is as useless a label as progressive, conservative, and liberal because they are all relative to a starting point that is constantly shifting.

    For that matter, who cares what he says either?

    What matters is what he has done and what has been done by his administration.

    — Biden has put together a competent cabinet.
    — The administration has shepherded a reasonably successful nationwide vaccination program.
    — The administration ushered in the American Rescue Plan (aka COVID-19 Stimulus) providing $1.9 trillion of relief to the American economy.
    — Biden raised the cap on refugees being admitted to the United States to 62,500 from the 15,000 set by Trump.
    — Biden returned the United States to the Paris Climate Accord.
    — Biden revoked the permit for the Keystone XL pipeline, blocked drilling at the Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), and ordered a stop to the issuing of new leases for oil and gas exploration on public lands.
    — Biden had the United States rejoin the World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Human Rights Council.

    Obviously, there is more, but those are some of the highlights. Call them what you will and label him and his administration what you will — all depends on your starting point.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Again you're unwilling to recognize that one of these groups IS consisted of leftists. ANd the other ISN'T a Moderate. So even your comparison isn't even applicable (although I can't speak for DBroncos, I'm guessing he's for a progressive agenda as well just isn't a ****in psycho).

    And the reason we do this is for COMPLETELY different reasons. I use this ACCURATE terms to group together the posters that normally post this type of garbage. I'm being called a moderate in a way to discount my position. Even though I'm probably for just as far left positions as they are I'm just not completely politically illiterate. They want to paint the picture that I'm for Biden because we're both Moderates. But in reality I'm for Biden because he has shown to be pushing PROGRESSIVE polices.
    I am for a progressive agenda, but I just realize that there is only so much we can do and what we can do requires some help from those who are slightly more conservative than us.

    As to being a psycho, I like to think I'm not but I'm sort of biased in that matter. I'll let future historians decide that.
    Let's get embedded tweets working again!

    https://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sh...5#post33780085

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Who cares what Joe Biden is? Moderate is as useless a label as progressive, conservative, and liberal because they are all relative to a starting point that is constantly shifting.

    For that matter, who cares what he says either?

    What matters is what he has done and what has been done by his administration.
    — Biden has put together a competent cabinet.
    Debatable
    — The administration has shepherded a reasonably successful nationwide vaccination program.
    Agree. Though it did get off to a very rocky start
    — The administration ushered in the American Rescue Plan (aka COVID-19 Stimulus) providing $1.9 trillion of relief to the American economy.
    Which the funds are being transferred elsewhere because it was not needed
    — Biden raised the cap on refugees being admitted to the United States to 62,500 from the 15,000 set by Trump.
    While completely bungling the border crisis
    — Biden returned the United States to the Paris Climate Accord.
    Dumb
    — 1. Biden revoked the permit for the Keystone XL pipeline, 2. blocked drilling at the Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), 3. and ordered a stop to the issuing of new leases for oil and gas exploration on public lands.
    1. Idiotic. Especially after allowing the Russia to move forward with Nord Stream. It was just a '**** you' to Trump
    2. A good move
    3. Dumb. There should have been a strategic allocation of land. Not a full on stop
    — Biden had the United States rejoin the World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Human Rights Council.
    Absolutely idiotic

    Obviously, there is more, but those are some of the highlights. Call them what you will and label him and his administration what you will — all depends on your starting point.
    Most are lowlights

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    Who cares what Joe Biden is? Moderate is as useless a label as progressive, conservative, and liberal because they are all relative to a starting point that is constantly shifting.

    For that matter, who cares what he says either?

    What matters is what he has done and what has been done by his administration.

    — Biden has put together a competent cabinet.
    — The administration has shepherded a reasonably successful nationwide vaccination program.
    — The administration ushered in the American Rescue Plan (aka COVID-19 Stimulus) providing $1.9 trillion of relief to the American economy.
    — Biden raised the cap on refugees being admitted to the United States to 62,500 from the 15,000 set by Trump.
    — Biden returned the United States to the Paris Climate Accord.
    — Biden revoked the permit for the Keystone XL pipeline, blocked drilling at the Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), and ordered a stop to the issuing of new leases for oil and gas exploration on public lands.
    — Biden had the United States rejoin the World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Human Rights Council.

    Obviously, there is more, but those are some of the highlights. Call them what you will and label him and his administration what you will — all depends on your starting point.
    I think I went 2-3 months without Spock scolding me for my Biden criticism! And as I did say yesterday in this thread, I mostly agree with this. I do think Biden had a good start to his Presidency. Trump stepped in and tried to undo just about everything and anything Obama did. Biden has reversed some of those key things. There are a few things that he has the authority to do on his own that I hope he does (see: student debt), but yeah...I wasn't terribly annoyed early on.

    The proof will be in the pudding and I'm certainly not hoping I'm right. But at the same time I'm not a Trump supporter. My politics aren't about just reacting and crying about the dumbest things to stoke the culture war. I care mostly about a few very obvious and real problems. Like health care, climate change, criminal justice reform, American imperialism, and so on. For many of those I see a lot of tremendous activists and advocates and a plethora of bold and exciting solutions. Things that could lift so many people up and end so much evil. I recognize change like that is hard, but I'd still rather have someone who is an undying advocate for these issues than a career politician who ends up on the right side of things way later than he should. This sense of distrust isn't going anywhere.

    But Crovash, your point is right: it doesn't matter what Biden has said or done in the past. It just matters what he does. I don't know if I'm tired of it or have just already completely lowered my expectations, but I'm feeling OK with "it matters what he does" carrying a lot of my hope. There are a lot of people who do passionately care about enacting bold policy. I hope they win out...and people like Larry Summers keel over!

    My pessimism rarely takes a back seat but I'm at least a little numb to it right now. Not for long, I'm sure. But although I do agree with Wes' underlying points and concerns, I'm fine letting him play Bad Cop for a little
    HELLO

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSpock View Post
    Just him getting elected made a massive move in climate change. You already are seeing this with car companies moving forward with plans to go full electric. He reentered the Paris Agreement.

    A lot of these things are just too early to determine. He's received backing from the coal miners union in regards to his climate plan, in exchange for reassurance that their displaced work force will receive worker retraining and government assistance to help with the transition.

    This infrastructure bill is very tricky. Because they cannot add things to it, that doesn't directly involve the federal budget (because if they do, they risk a Republican filibuster) but at the same time have to have all 50 Senators vote for it (which has been proven near impossible when it comes to Manchin).

    As far as healthcare, they would be dumb to pursue significant change right now. IT's historically a deathnote for your administration. Obama took that risk because he believed he had a Super Majority in the senate. He ended up not getting the public option he wanted, and killing his parties chances in the midterms. Gaining 0 political capital from the bill as favorability of ObamaCare didn't start rising till the bill was full implemented 5 years later when it started to skyrocket.

    In other words it makes more sense for the Democrats to pursue this legislation at a different time. THey don't have the political capital to do so, and even if they did it would be more intelligent to push after the midterms or even better after a reelection.

    Good luck on immigration reform. What exactly do you want? Because you're never going to get the radical proposals that would be necessary to help with the border.

    From what I can tell the only way to satisfactorily fix the border (this is assuming that people want immigration, and aren't just completely protectionist on the subject) is to set up an amnesty program. Something where people already here can work their way to citizenships in lets say 5 years. The further they go down the program the more benefits they receive till they get their full citizenship classification.

    THen strengthen border security, and allow for an easier system for low wage workers to come to America on these same terms, with a special type of VISA. Raise taxes on the rich (which is another whole conversation) and redistribute some of the earning they receive due to the influx of low wage workers to the low "uneducated native worker" who have their wages effected due to the immigration.

    None of this is ever going to happen because the border is a mess.

    Its crazy to me that you call USA hawkish. China needs to stay in their damn lane. The Taiwanese are not Hong Kong. THey will not surrender at first contact.

    And **** Russia. Putin also needs to settle the **** down.

    I don't know where you stand on these 2 countries, but I know a lot of lefties online seam to sympathize with China for some damn reason. Apparently imperialism is only a problem when America does it. And I'm just not a full on protectionist. I think it's naive to think America needs to back down from these countries. Especially while China is clearly trying to expand and Russia is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union.

    At the end of the day. Are #1 goal right now should be to take more Senate seats. As it will be very difficult to pass legislation without more seats.

    WHat specific policies are you looking for in lets say his first 4 years in office? WHat would be a satisfactory performance from the Biden admin in this time?
    Thanks for responding.

    I disagree that it's dumb to pursue change to our health care now. Whole-heartedly. We're in a pandemic, first off. Like...when would a better time have been? It's simply unacceptable that a country of our magnitude does not have some form of single payer. I've seen how this health care system dicks over way too many people in my life. It's gross and standing in the way of TRUE universal health care that is TRULY affordable is insane to me.

    I see a lot of "better things are not possible" in this post. And I do also disagree with that. I don't accept that the political status quo is the best we can demand. And I certainly disagree with providing cover to those that stand in the way of bold reform.

    What do you mean when "China needs to stay in their own lane" and "Putin needs to settle the **** down". What do you want the US to do about it? Explain that to me! I don't sympathize with China. I just think we aren't the world police, we don't need to start a Cold War with a country like China or Russia, and we can do so much on our own to build a robust economy that doesn't involve sounding like how John Bolton does when he's talking about Iran

    I do agree about things like "making more Senate seats". I think Dems need to start playing the same game Republicans are. DC statehood is just. If PR wants statehood, give it to them. Pack the courts. Do whatever is in your means to hold onto power and enact policy that lifts this country up.

    So on and so on.

    What do I want out of Biden? I struggle with that every day. It's why I've tried so hard to get some expectations from others.

    I just want him ultimately to govern with the concern and direness that we all treat these issues with every day. When we talk about climate change, we acknowledge the graveness of the threat and recognize that half-measures won't fix the problem. Govern that way. I want an improved health care system. Obviously I won't shut up until we get something we deserve, but major changes to Obamacare are a bare minimum. He needs to tax the rich. He needs to help ease the burden personal debt has on like the entire country (he could cancel student debt on his own...which would be a massive game-changer). He needs to do something that acknowledges the racist criminal justice system in this country and do something tangible to make it less cruel. He needs to decrease our military presence overseas and slash our defense budget. Immigration is the trickiest for me. Abolish ICE is a good start. There are still kids in cages. That's a good start! He NEEDS to pass a very significant election reform/voter rights bill. What else....?

    Let me know what you think!

    But lot of that is like...bare minimum.
    HELLO

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    Thanks for responding.

    I disagree that it's dumb to pursue change to our health care now. Whole-heartedly. We're in a pandemic, first off. Like...when would a better time have been? It's simply unacceptable that a country of our magnitude does not have some form of single payer. I've seen how this health care system dicks over way too many people in my life. It's gross and standing in the way of TRUE universal health care that is TRULY affordable is insane to me.

    I see a lot of "better things are not possible" in this post. And I do also disagree with that. I don't accept that the political status quo is the best we can demand. And I certainly disagree with providing cover to those that stand in the way of bold reform.

    What do you mean when "China needs to stay in their own lane" and "Putin needs to settle the **** down". What do you want the US to do about it? Explain that to me! I don't sympathize with China. I just think we aren't the world police, we don't need to start a Cold War with a country like China or Russia, and we can do so much on our own to build a robust economy that doesn't involve sounding like how John Bolton does when he's talking about Iran

    I do agree about things like "making more Senate seats". I think Dems need to start playing the same game Republicans are. DC statehood is just. If PR wants statehood, give it to them. Pack the courts. Do whatever is in your means to hold onto power and enact policy that lifts this country up.

    So on and so on.

    What do I want out of Biden? I struggle with that every day. It's why I've tried so hard to get some expectations from others.

    I just want him ultimately to govern with the concern and direness that we all treat these issues with every day. When we talk about climate change, we acknowledge the graveness of the threat and recognize that half-measures won't fix the problem. Govern that way. I want an improved health care system. Obviously I won't shut up until we get something we deserve, but major changes to Obamacare are a bare minimum. He needs to tax the rich. He needs to help ease the burden personal debt has on like the entire country (he could cancel student debt on his own...which would be a massive game-changer). He needs to do something that acknowledges the racist criminal justice system in this country and do something tangible to make it less cruel. He needs to decrease our military presence overseas and slash our defense budget. Immigration is the trickiest for me. Abolish ICE is a good start. There are still kids in cages. That's a good start! He NEEDS to pass a very significant election reform/voter rights bill. What else....?

    Let me know what you think!

    But lot of that is like...bare minimum.
    I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. Are you in favor of abolishing the filibuster to enact single payer healthcare, climate change reforms, etc.?

    What do you think will happen in say 2024 in Republicans get control of all 3? Do you think it would be better long term to have abolished it or do you think Republicans would do more damage than Democrats could do good?

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. Are you in favor of abolishing the filibuster to enact single payer healthcare, climate change reforms, etc.?

    What do you think will happen in say 2024 in Republicans get control of all 3? Do you think it would be better long term to have abolished it or do you think Republicans would do more damage than Democrats could do good?
    1. I would assume Republicans would do more bad than Democrats would do good. That definitely is in line with my broad beliefs of both parties and is also why I haven't mentioned it in this thread.

    2. I would support it in a perfect world. A world where 1) I trust Democrats to actually get a simple majority for any of these "dream bills" of mine and 2) it's followed up by not just some of those dream bills, but also a robust voting rights/election security bill that seriously undoes the many ways Republicans have gamed the system to hold onto minority rule.

    Without that assurance, I'm not gung-ho about it.

    But in that perfect world -- say there are 50 Ilhan Omars in the Senate -- hell yeah. I take the risk. I'm a broken record about how I think that delivering bold and transformative policy not only is good, but would give Democrats some desperately needed good will to the checked out. Single payer is a game changer. You can't understate the impact that would have on so many people's lives. The GND would be a game changer. It's not merely a bold response to a serious problem, but it would be a transformative jobs program, something we surely could use! I mean, even merely eliminating student debt...that would be an enormous help to so many millennials; a demographic with a so much less wealth to its name than prior generations and an unprecedented level of personal debt.


    So yeah, under the right conditions I'd obviously be all for it. The right conditions don't exist so I'm not sure. I don't trust Dems enough to not fumble it and to deliver.

    But at the same time, these issues aren't trivial and a lot of people do need a lot of help. I get those who are passionate about eliminating it.
    HELLO

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. Are you in favor of abolishing the filibuster to enact single payer healthcare, climate change reforms, etc.?

    What do you think will happen in say 2024 in Republicans get control of all 3? Do you think it would be better long term to have abolished it or do you think Republicans would do more damage than Democrats could do good?
    I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I want to say that I don't think we'll ever see the two parties ever come together to pass massive bills like what Manram was talking about. We have to acknowledge that the right and left literally hate each other. If we don't change the filibuster, nothing will get done unless one side has a filibuster proof majority (60 senators). It's a bleak reality, but it's the one we live in.

    Regardless of want, we're going to have to do something on filibuster. As to whether or not republicans can do more damage than democrats do good, I would argue that republicans certainly could do more damage, but they may not get the chance. If democrats changed the filibuster and Biden passed the legislation that Manram was talking about, he almost certainly wouldn't lose re election because people's lives would be much better. If republicans ever tried to take away healthcare or reduce the minimum wage it would be political suicide, just like getting rid of social security would be today. They wouldn't be able to take away DC statehood. The things democrats could do now would be here to stay, and considering that more people voted for a minimum wage increase in Florida than Donald Trump, I'd' be willing to bet democrats would be rewarded for their efforts.
    Last edited by TylerSL; 06-16-2021 at 02:38 PM.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRam View Post
    1. I would assume Republicans would do more bad than Democrats would do good. That definitely is in line with my broad beliefs of both parties and is also why I haven't mentioned it in this thread.

    2. I would support it in a perfect world. A world where 1) I trust Democrats to actually get a simple majority for any of these "dream bills" of mine and 2) it's followed up by not just some of those dream bills, but also a robust voting rights/election security bill that seriously undoes the many ways Republicans have gamed the system to hold onto minority rule.

    Without that assurance, I'm not gung-ho about it.

    But in that perfect world -- say there are 50 Ilhan Omars in the Senate -- hell yeah. I take the risk. I'm a broken record about how I think that delivering bold and transformative policy not only is good, but would give Democrats some desperately needed good will to the checked out. Single payer is a game changer. You can't understate the impact that would have on so many people's lives. The GND would be a game changer. It's not merely a bold response to a serious problem, but it would be a transformative jobs program, something we surely could use! I mean, even merely eliminating student debt...that would be an enormous help to so many millennials; a demographic with a so much less wealth to its name than prior generations and an unprecedented level of personal debt.


    So yeah, under the right conditions I'd obviously be all for it. The right conditions don't exist so I'm not sure. I don't trust Dems enough to not fumble it and to deliver.

    But at the same time, these issues aren't trivial and a lot of people do need a lot of help. I get those who are passionate about eliminating it.
    Once again, damn good post. Especially the lack of faith in the democrat party to deliver the goods, which fuel my doubts about the democrat party.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  11. #281
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    I even change my mind and agree with Valade that the filibuster must remain intact because the Dems will fall short and the republicans will come back in power and be even more corrosive in getting minority rule without the filibuster rule.

    In accepting this, I concede nothing will be done, so it better not to make a bad situation even worse. What a country.
    Last edited by WES445; 06-16-2021 at 02:48 PM.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I want to say that I don't think we'll ever see the two parties ever come together to pass massive bills like what Manram was talking about. We have to acknowledge that the right and left literally hate each other. If we don't change the filibuster, nothing will get done unless one side has a filibuster proof majority (60 senators). It's a bleak reality, but it's the one we live in.

    Regardless of want, we're going to have to do something on filibuster. As to whether or not republicans can do more damage than democrats do good, I would argue that republicans certainly could do more damage, but they may not get the chance. If democrats changed the filibuster and Biden passed the legislation that Manram was talking about, he almost certainly wouldn't lose re election because people's lives would be much better. If republicans ever tried to take away healthcare or reduce the minimum wage it would be political suicide, just like getting rid of social security would be today. They wouldn't be able to take away DC statehood. The things democrats could do now would be here to stay, and considering that more people voted for a minimum wage increase in Florida than Donald Trump, I'd' be willing to bet democrats would be rewarded for their efforts.
    If the more passionate progressive section of the party controls the DNC, I would agree and take the gamble. I am sorry to be a broken record, but Biden's word to the donors is also shared among the moderates, especially Manchin. They will fumble the ball and give the republicans a loaded cruise missile to blow up the constitution to gain minority rule in 2024.
    There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

    Will Rogers

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    If the more passionate progressive section of the party controls the DNC, I would agree and take the gamble. I am sorry to be a broken record, but Biden's word to the donors is also shared among the moderates, especially Manchin. They will fumble the ball and give the republicans a loaded cruise missile to blow up the constitution to gain minority rule in 2024.
    I agree, and that's why I started this thread. Biden doesn't push the party far enough, therefore he should step aside in 2024. He did a good job on COVID and restoring order to our country, but he even admitted in the primaries that he's just the bridge to the future. He should prove that by not running again. We need change in the democratic party, we tried to go back to business as usual and he'll end up passing nothing when his party controls both chambers of Congress. We have to change Washington, and Biden just isn't that President.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerSL View Post
    I agree, and that's why I started this thread. Biden doesn't push the party far enough, therefore he should step aside in 2024. He did a good job on COVID and restoring order to our country, but he even admitted in the primaries that he's just the bridge to the future. He should prove that by not running again. We need change in the democratic party, we tried to go back to business as usual and he'll end up passing nothing when his party controls both chambers of Congress. We have to change Washington, and Biden just isn't that President.
    that assumes the Democratic party WANTS to be pushed further than it's currently being pushed...just because progressives want the party further left doesn't mean that's what the party itself wants to do......going further left alienates just as many people as going too far right

    it won't matter- IMO it will be obvious by 2024 that he doesn't want to or it's simply illogical for him to run again...and Harris was selected to take the handoff
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    that assumes the Democratic party WANTS to be pushed further than it's currently being pushed

    it won't matter- IMO it will be obvious by 2024 that he doesn't want to or it's simply illogical for him to run again...and Harris was selected to take the handoff
    Man I hope this is the case. She'll fumble. Mods don't like her, progs don't like her and independents don't like her.

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