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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Rex View Post
    What about the HEAT/Mavs finals? LeBron had a great team and disappeared in the finals. There are numerous instances where he quit - you don't get that reputation out of nowhere.
    Meh, idk if he quit there. He was demoralized by a great gameplan from Carlisle that exploited his existing weaknesses. The team couldn't overcome Bron being neutralized, and that was essentially the last time in his career he was able to be gameplanned out of making an impact.

    That Heat team btw- was truly carried by LeBron. They brought it down to the studs so outside of Bron/Wade/Bosh they had a joke of a roster.

    Over the next couple of seasons , Wade/Bosh declined rapidly but the Heat were able to add some valuable depth to the roster.


    Don't get me wrong : Bron underperformed and the Heat should have won imo.

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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not when you retire in the middle of your prime, and certainly not when you come out of retirement several times.

    If LeBron retired after his first Cleveland stint and came back a year later, do you think he'd get heat for it? If he retired after Miami and came back a year later? etc.

    I think we all know the answer, don't we?...
    That's a poor comparison. Jordan accomplished what could be expected from an NBA player by the time of his first retirement (multiple championships, MVPs). Prime or otherwise, he already had nothing more to prove. It would be like calling Lebron a quitter for choosing to retire after winning the NBA championship with the Cavs as significant underdogs where they beat a top 5 NBA team of all time in the Warriors and finally willed a hapless franchise into a championship. Neither case makes one a quitter.


    Now if MJ retired prior to his first 3-peat when the silly narrative was out that he couldn't lead a championship team, then you'd have a point.
    Last edited by kozelkid; 06-07-2021 at 05:20 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    But, these shots here and there don't account for the fact LBJ has carried bad teams further , consistently, than anyone in nba history.


    That weighs a lot more than a couple of shots of him taking a break or looking frustrated.


    100 percent guarantee every single great in nba history has done the same thing at some point or another.

    I'd you don't believe so you're just falling victim to false narratives and propaganda.

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    Yes every great player has likely taken a play off because they were tired or frustrated, or were busy complaining to the ref.

    But I've NEVER seen any of the guys who are consensus top 5 guys taking this many plays off over this many games within the same series. I'm totally and honestly open to any video evidence showing otherwise.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Yes every great player has likely taken a play off because they were tired or frustrated, or were busy complaining to the ref.

    But I've NEVER seen any of the guys who are consensus top 5 guys taking this many plays off over this many games within the same series. I'm totally and honestly open to any video evidence showing otherwise.
    You can't point out a few examples and then demand evidence the other way lol

    The only way to truly analyze this would be to

    1) determine the best way to determine if one is "taking a play off". It needs to be adaptable for different eras. For example , taking a play off in the 90s may look different to taking a play off in the 00s. It's all relative, just as performance is judged relative to one's peers.

    2) watch every regular season play and post season play of a players career, and determine the overall "quit rate"



    Otherwise, it's all conjecture and means nothing imo

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    Last edited by blams; 06-07-2021 at 08:19 PM.

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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Not when you retire in the middle of your prime, and certainly not when you come out of retirement several times.

    If LeBron retired after his first Cleveland stint and came back a year later, do you think he'd get heat for it? If he retired after Miami and came back a year later? etc.

    I think we all know the answer, don't we?...
    Jordan has a legit reason for retiring though. His dad had just been murdered and that was the reason he retired..

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kozelkid View Post
    That's a poor comparison. Jordan accomplished what could be expected from an NBA player by the time of his first retirement (multiple championships, MVPs). Prime or otherwise, he already had nothing more to prove. It would be like calling Lebron a quitter for choosing to retire after winning the NBA championship with the Cavs as significant underdogs where they beat a top 5 NBA team of all time in the Warriors and finally willed a hapless franchise into a championship. Neither case makes one a quitter.

    Now if MJ retired prior to his first 3-peat when the silly narrative was out that he couldn't lead a championship team, then you'd have a point.
    If LeBron did quit after that championship and came back a year later, people would indeed call him a quitter.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LF85 View Post
    Jordan has a legit reason for retiring though. His dad had just been murdered and that was the reason he retired..
    Even discounting that incident, he retired in 1998 because the coach he wanted was pushed out. Could you imagine if Tyrone Lue were pushed out in Cleveland and LeBron just retired? LeBron would have caught a rash of heat.

    Heck, LeBron would catch a rash of heat if he decided to retire this offseason and people would indeed call him a quitter.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    If LeBron did quit after that championship and came back a year later, people would indeed call him a quitter.
    I mean there are irrational "haters" out there on both sides of the debate.

    Doesn't make the initial comparison valid though.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Even discounting that incident, he retired in 1998 because the coach he wanted was pushed out. Could you imagine if Tyrone Lue were pushed out in Cleveland and LeBron just retired? LeBron would have caught a rash of heat.

    Heck, LeBron would catch a rash of heat if he decided to retire this offseason and people would indeed call him a quitter.
    Haha.. Comparing Lue to Phil.. Krause blew the team up..

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    You can't point out a few examples and then demand evidence the other way lol

    The only way to truly analyze this would be to

    1) determine the best way to determine if one is "taking a play off". It needs to be adaptable for different eras. For example , taking a play off in the 90s may look different to taking a play off in the 00s. It's all relative, just as performance is judged relative to one's peers.

    2) watch every regular season play and post season play of a players career, and determine the overall "quit rate"



    Otherwise, it's all conjecture and means nothing imo

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    This is honestly one of the emptiest responses I've seen in a while.

    I need to extrapolate the definition of quitting? It's choosing not to walk over the half court mark while all 9 other players are in the other end of the court and you're not injured.

    Lol.

    The excuses fans will make when they have an agenda.

  11. #56
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    I just don't understand the need to hate on either guy. If someone thinks MJ is the GOAT that does not mean they hate Lebron, or vice versa.

    MJ is the GOAT for me, but I do not hate Lebron.

    6-0 > 4-6 in the finals, end of story.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    This is honestly one of the emptiest responses I've seen in a while.

    I need to extrapolate the definition of quitting? It's choosing not to walk over the half court mark while all 9 other players are in the other end of the court and you're not injured.

    Lol.

    The excuses fans will make when they have an agenda.
    In order to compare and contrast, yes there has to be an understood standard to abide by lol

    I'm not making excuses , but without data it's just propaganda/anecdotal/etc


    Best bet is to assume all guys work hard, practice hard, don't quit , etc. Get rid of these pointless debates.


    Then judge the players solely on on court performance, trying to discount team performance as much as possible- except where it can be shown a player is actively improving team play while on the court.


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    Last edited by blams; 06-07-2021 at 10:28 PM.

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunuu View Post
    I just don't understand the need to hate on either guy. If someone thinks MJ is the GOAT that does not mean they hate Lebron, or vice versa.

    MJ is the GOAT for me, but I do not hate Lebron.

    6-0 > 4-6 in the finals, end of story.
    I believe if you're going to make that kind of comparison, you need to then count all pre finals losses, and weigh earlier round losses more, progressively.

    Then you'll have a W/L record or whatever you want to call it, that is a bit more indicative of true performance- for the teams.


    Jordan could end up above lebron... he could not idk
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    Last edited by blams; 06-07-2021 at 10:36 PM.

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  14. #59
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    LeBron James Quits

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunuu View Post
    I just don't understand the need to hate on either guy. If someone thinks MJ is the GOAT that does not mean they hate Lebron, or vice versa.

    MJ is the GOAT for me, but I do not hate Lebron.

    6-0 > 4-6 in the finals, end of story.
    Like Iím sure many here Iíve watched both careers in their entirety. I donít need to use finals records to know that Iíd take MJ 10 times out of 10 when starting a team, needing to win a game, etc. between the 2.


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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierzynski4Prez View Post
    Like Iím sure many here Iíve watched both careers in their entirety. I donít need to use finals records to know that Iíd take MJ 10 times out of 10 when starting a team, needing to win a game, etc. between the 2.


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    You're also from the Chicagoland area lol, 99.999 percent of people from there would do so

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