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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Why are bombs/grenades/rockets illegal then?

    I would even note cars have a lot of regulation in this country as well. As a society we absolutely take into account how deadly something has the potential to be most of the time and the uses.

    Thatís why more deadlier options are also illegal currently (or just like fireworks with just the potential to be too dangerous). Why not allow those other deadlier options if itís simply a society problem and the tool doesnít matter? I think you are aware certain tools make it much easier even if you potentially could use something else or there may be a one off situation here or there where something else could be effective still. None of that negates the dangers of the tool being discussed or how society often deals with very dangerous tools most of the time.


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    This is something gun supporters always overlook. If the line is drawn at military style equipment then there is a clear designation at what shouldn't be put in civilians hands. High powered high capacity guns, rifles don't belong in the possession of human beings. There's no reason for them. You don't need them for big game hunting, you don't even need them for the shooting range, etc. They are there to inflict more damage and kill more people more efficiently. Even if most mass shootings are done with handguns, that's not a good excuse to give people access to weapons that are far more deadly and can result in significantly higher body counts.

    Ask the families of the victims in Las Vegas if they think its okay for people to have access to those type of weapons.

    Fireworks are a great example btw. 99% of the time they are done responsibly and safely but the things these states worry about is them being a fire hazard which can lead to multiple deaths. Well, assault weapons serve little to no purpose and can be extremely deadly but these states are perfectly okay with them being legally accessible. Its not just a constitutional thing. Its a mindset that is stubbornly not going anywhere.
    Last edited by metswon69; 06-08-2021 at 05:54 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    This is something gun supporters always overlook. If the line is drawn at military style equipment then there is a clear designation at what shouldn't be put in civilians hands. High powered high capacity guns, rifles don't belong in the position of human beings. There's no reason for them. You don't need them for big game hunting, you don't even need them for the shooting range. They are there to inflict more damage and kill more people more efficiently. Even if most mass shootings are done with handguns, that's not a good excuse to give people access to weapons that are far more deadly and can result in significantly higher body counts.

    Ask the families of the victims in Las Vegas if they think its okay for people to have access to those type of weapons.

    Fireworks are a great example btw. 99% of the time they are done responsibly and safely but the things these states worry about is them being a fire hazard which can lead to multiple deaths. Well, assault weapons serve little to no purpose and can be extremely deadly but these states are perfectly okay with them being legally accessible. Its not just a constitutional thing. Its a mindset that is stubbornly not going anywhere.
    It's funny cause Scoots said you were being disingenuous previously but I asked him to explain while making this same point and still have gotten nothing really in response. The only responses to me so far have all deflected away from it then not responded when I went more in depth similar to you here.

    I think we know the ones being disingenuous here...

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Why are bombs/grenades/rockets illegal then?

    I would even note cars have a lot of regulation in this country as well. As a society we absolutely take into account how deadly something has the potential to be most of the time and the uses.

    Thatís why more deadlier options are also illegal currently (or just like fireworks with just the potential to be too dangerous). Why not allow those other deadlier options if itís simply a society problem and the tool doesnít matter? I think you are aware certain tools make it much easier even if you potentially could use something else or there may be a one off situation here or there where something else could be effective still. None of that negates the dangers of the tool being discussed or how society often deals with very dangerous tools most of the time.


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    You can buy grenades from army surplus stores, my uncle who fought in Vietnam had one, and you can make homemade explosives, just so long as you don't use them for illegal purposes. People use explosives in homemade science experiments all the time.
    People build rockets.

    Dude, you can steal a car and use it to kill people.


    And all this ignores my previous comment about 3D printing.
    1)

    On top of all that, with the way 3D printing of guns AND bullets have come along, even if you got the worlds most perfect gun *buy-back* (lol that's not what it is but w/e) people could still just print a gun and bullets and do whatever they want.

    Targeting the underlying symptoms of violence is the only method that will produce a reasonable and actionable change in violence.
    So let's say you get that perfect gun *buy-back* (lol) what are you going to do to stop me from printing a gun and bullets in the privacy of my own home, and then going on a shooting rampage?
    Last edited by ciaban2.0; 06-08-2021 at 11:02 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    This is something gun supporters always overlook. If the line is drawn at military style equipment then there is a clear designation at what shouldn't be put in civilians hands. High powered high capacity guns, rifles don't belong in the possession of human beings. There's no reason for them. You don't need them for big game hunting, you don't even need them for the shooting range, etc. They are there to inflict more damage and kill more people more efficiently. Even if most mass shootings are done with handguns, that's not a good excuse to give people access to weapons that are far more deadly and can result in significantly higher body counts.

    Ask the families of the victims in Las Vegas if they think its okay for people to have access to those type of weapons.

    Fireworks are a great example btw. 99% of the time they are done responsibly and safely but the things these states worry about is them being a fire hazard which can lead to multiple deaths. Well, assault weapons serve little to no purpose and can be extremely deadly but these states are perfectly okay with them being legally accessible. Its not just a constitutional thing. Its a mindset that is stubbornly not going anywhere.
    The problem is non-gun owners don't understand what "high power" or "high-capacity" mean.

    I hear a lot about how the AR-15 is not allowed for Elk or Moose or Bear hunting. Which, BTW is true, Fish and Game doesn't allow that gun for use in hunting those animals...but that's because the AR-15 isn't powerful enough it doesn't do enough damage to put the animal down clean, those animals are too large. You need to use higher-capacity rounds and stronger guns.

    The goal with hunters is to put the game down instantly, you don't want a freaked-out wounded animal running through the wood's on adrenaline leaving a trail of blood that other preditors will follow that you have to chase down. Also, you don't want to induce any extra suffering on the animal.

    AR-15 are excellent guns for killing mid-size game, like large foul (geese) small deer, boar...you know what else is about the size and weight of a boar? Humans...were like midsize game. That's why those guns are very effective on humans.

    BTW how do you DEFINE Assult Weapon, all weapons are assault weapons, because you use them to commit assault.

    Do you mean like Fully Automatic .50 caliber guns? Because those aren't legal. Do you mean Fully Automatic guns at all? Because those have been illegal (except for some grandfathered in from the 70's) for nearly 50 years, and the process to get a licences for those guns is super long and expensive.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    You can buy grenades from army surplus stores, my uncle who fought in Vietnam had one, and you can make homemade explosives, just so long as you don't use them for illegal purposes. People use explosives in homemade science experiments all the time.
    People build rockets.

    Dude, you can steal a car and use it to kill people.


    And all this ignores my previous comment about 3D printing.


    So let's say you get that perfect gun *buy-back* (lol) what are you going to do to stop me from printing a gun and bullets in the privacy of my own home, and then going on a shooting rampage?
    There are certainly some levels of explosives that can be bought I even noted a type for that reason. The point is there are limits on the most dangerous types. Being able to steal things would be a lot tougher if there were less of those things to steal.

    You seem to be arguing because some people can do illegal things we shouldn't have common sense laws in place for safety. That's not a good stance. I am not saying no one would ever die from a gun again or that people can't steal a car but access is restricted and there are laws/requirements around dangerous things all the time. Some seem to just want to pretend it is some attack on them to use common sense in a similar manner on this specific issue. The idea isn't no one would ever do anything bad, it would be there would be less people doing bad things with guns like many many many other developed countries...
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-09-2021 at 12:55 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    There are certainly some levels of explosives that can be bought I even noted a type for that reason. The point is there are limits on the most dangerous types. Being able to steal things would be a lot tougher if there were less of those things to steal.

    You seem to be arguing because some people can do illegal things we shouldn't have common sense laws in place for safety. That's not a good stance. I am not saying no one would ever die from a gun again or that people can't steal a car but access is restricted and there are laws/requirements around dangerous things all the time. Some seem to just want to pretend it is some attack on them to use common sense in a similar manner on this specific issue. The idea isn't no one would ever do anything bad, it would be there would be less people doing bad things with guns like many many many other developed countries...
    There are cars EVERYWHERE, and there are no efforts to restrict them. Also, this doesn't answer my question regarding 3d printing, as the printers become cheaper better and more ubiquitous, how do you stop someone from using a 3d printed gun to kill people?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    There are cars EVERYWHERE, and there are no efforts to restrict them. Also, this doesn't answer my question regarding 3d printing, as the printers become cheaper better and more ubiquitous, how do you stop someone from using a 3d printed gun to kill people?
    There are tons of laws related to cars and requirements to legally drive them. Where you can park, tags and license plate, what you need for a valid drivers license etc etc. You are being ridiculous lol. If you missed it the point is no one can ever use these items and cars are not quite as easy to kill massive amounts of people on a regular basis either. They also currently have many more daily uses/are more necessary for every day life. These aren't genuine points being made.

    I am not sure, that seems pretty irrelevant to the dangers of letting everyone have them though. How do you stop 3d printing a lot of illegal stuff (drugs/counterfeit/keys or access cards)? I think some action like a national registry could potentially help us keep track and be easier to find out when guns are illegal would it not? This isn't related to my point anyways, I don't have any specific answer on stopping people from using 3d printing to do bad things including guns I am sorry but its also mostly irrelevant to my point throughout.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    You can buy grenades from army surplus stores, my uncle who fought in Vietnam had one, and you can make homemade explosives, just so long as you don't use them for illegal purposes. People use explosives in homemade science experiments all the time.
    People build rockets.

    Dude, you can steal a car and use it to kill people.


    And all this ignores my previous comment about 3D printing.


    So let's say you get that perfect gun *buy-back* (lol) what are you going to do to stop me from printing a gun and bullets in the privacy of my own home, and then going on a shooting rampage?
    First, Iím going to make it so you donít have a 3D printer in your home capable of printing a gun. Ok finished. Howís I do?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    There are tons of laws related to cars and requirements to legally drive them. Where you can park, tags and license plate, what you need for a valid drivers license etc etc. You are being ridiculous lol. If you missed it the point is no one can ever use these items and cars are not quite as easy to kill massive amounts of people on a regular basis either. They also currently have many more daily uses/are more necessary for every day life. These aren't genuine points being made.

    I am not sure, that seems pretty irrelevant to the dangers of letting everyone have them though. How do you stop 3d printing a lot of illegal stuff (drugs/counterfeit/keys or access cards)? I think some action like a national registry could potentially help us keep track and be easier to find out when guns are illegal would it not? This isn't related to my point anyways, I don't have any specific answer on stopping people from using 3d printing to do bad things including guns I am sorry but its also mostly irrelevant to my point throughout.
    All sorts of laws? Since when do criminals who have an intent to murder people give a **** about laws? People drive on suspended licenses illegally all the time. IDK if your a baseball fan or if you Remember Nick Adenhart, but he was killed by a drunk driver who was driving on a suspended license for the crime of....drunk driving.

    Your point is you want to restrict guns to keep people from using them to do illegal things, if I can just print one at home, you can't really restrict them in any practical way.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    First, Iím going to make it so you donít have a 3D printer in your home capable of printing a gun. Ok finished. Howís I do?


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    You did as well as preventing me from owning a computer that can download porn in my home, or a spatchualla that can flip pancakes.
    The printer just prints the info you tell it to print. Just like printing a document on your laser printer now.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    You did as well as preventing me from owning a computer that can download porn in my home, or a spatchualla that can flip pancakes.
    The printer just prints the info you tell it to print. Just like printing a document on your laser printer now.
    Cool did you print one?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Cool did you print one?


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    I could if I wanted to, I just don't have any interest.

  13. #88
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    California judge overturns state's 32 year ban on assault weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    All sorts of laws? Since when do criminals who have an intent to murder people give a **** about laws? People drive on suspended licenses illegally all the time. IDK if your a baseball fan or if you Remember Nick Adenhart, but he was killed by a drunk driver who was driving on a suspended license for the crime of....drunk driving.

    Your point is you want to restrict guns to keep people from using them to do illegal things, if I can just print one at home, you can't really restrict them in any practical way.
    If the point that criminals donít care about laws means we shouldnít have them at all thatís unrelated to guns specifically and is a societal change. You are either saying we shouldnít have any laws because people will break them anyways which I think is crazy but we can discus... or you are purposefully being extremely disingenuous here as I have been noting.

    My point is dangerous things are illegal/have laws for protection in this country normally, guns should be in that conversation in various ways depending on specifics. Pretty simple point people are trying to circle around in ridiculous ways.


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    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-09-2021 at 10:19 AM.

  14. #89
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    California judge overturns state's 32 year ban on assault weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    I could if I wanted to, I just don't have any interest.
    No??? You could own the libs. Just print one and post some pics.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    If the point that criminals donít care about laws means we shouldnít have them at all thatís unrelated to guns specifically and is a societal change. You are either saying we shouldnít have any laws because people will break them anyways which I think is crazy but we can discus... or you are purposefully being extremely disingenuous here as I have been noting.

    My point is dangerous things are illegal/have laws for protection in this country normally, guns should be in that conversation in various ways depending on specifics. Pretty simple point people are trying to circle around in ridiculous ways.


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    If the point of your LAW or REGULATION is to stop criminals from doing something, then you have to ask yourself is it even going to work.

    We have anti-littering laws to punish people who litter, so they won't litter again. If someone is looking to go on a suicidal murder spree, they're not thinking about long-term consequences. Your basically saying let's punish/regulate everyone because the perpatrator of this crime is dead, even though it won't stop future crimes from happening.

    That's not something that should be done with people's constitutional rights.

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