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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Oh good, someone else who doesn't comprehend my religious arguments and counters with 'you're wrong'...which is literally what I said happens. Really not sure why I keep opening these threads given it fills up with 'I'd like to discuss things and I'm open to what you say...but what you say is wrong'
    He didnít just say ďyouíre wrong.Ē He (and I) told you precisely why.

    Essentially you want us to believe that your freedoms are being attacked because other people donít believe in your beliefs and donít support them.

    Weíre not buying it and weíre calling you out. You are allowed to pray in school. You are allowed to choose to not have an abortion (if you were a woman. As a man you have no choice in the matter anyway but I suppose thatís a separate discussion, isnít it?)

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    He didnít just say ďyouíre wrong.Ē He (and I) told you precisely why.

    Essentially you want us to believe that your freedoms are being attacked because other people donít believe in your beliefs and donít support them.

    Weíre not buying it and weíre calling you out. You are allowed to pray in school. You are allowed to choose to not have an abortion (if you were a woman. As a man you have no choice in the matter anyway but I suppose thatís a separate discussion, isnít it?)
    again, comprehension skills
    I've told you of a situation where a relative of mine was suspended for praying in school...therefore, unfair to just say people are allowed. My relative's situation may not be the norm, but it happened, it happens.

    I also wasn't talking about choosing to or not to have an abortion, I'm referring to the mindset that I'm forcing my religion on you if I have an anti-abortion mindset but you're not forcing your opinion on me if you're pro-choice. Of COURSE I don't have to GET an abortion if I don't want to. But pro-choice people tell pro-life people they're wrong just as often as the reverse. I have the right to be pro-life without being told I'm wrong, right?

    so yeah....him telling me I'M wrong, is wrong, right?
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    again, comprehension skills
    I've told you of a situation where a relative of mine was suspended for praying in school...therefore, unfair to just say people are allowed. My relative's situation may not be the norm, but it happened, it happens.

    I also wasn't talking about choosing to or not to have an abortion, I'm referring to the mindset that I'm forcing my religion on you if I have an anti-abortion mindset but you're not forcing your opinion on me if you're pro-choice. Of COURSE I don't have to GET an abortion if I don't want to. But pro-choice people tell pro-life people they're wrong just as often as the reverse. I have the right to be pro-life without being told I'm wrong, right?

    so yeah....him telling me I'M wrong, is wrong, right?
    So hereís the problem: Going around saying you have an anti abortion mindset is kinda like telling people how theyíre allowed to live their lives

    Depends how youíre expressing it. A pro choice opinion threatens no one. A pro life opinion potentially can be very threatening to someone by forcing them to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

    Do you understand that?

    As for your relative, thatís been addressed too. Canít speak for specific incidents but the right to pray in school is guaranteed. Personally I have no way of knowing why your relative was kicked out of school other than your account. But if it went down precisely as you said it did, then shame on that school. I can also tell you thatís not how it usually happens, though.

  4. #19
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    I'm sorry, but a pro-choice mindset DOES impact other people...the other people involved that are often, or definitievely NOT given a choice. Quite often the father of an aborted child was given no input- ok, not his body, I get it. But that aborted child most definitely is innocent in all that and given no choice at all.

    So then it comes down to...when is a child a life? That's where a lot of the disagreement lies in this.

    Do you understand that?

    And that doesn't even get into those more indirectly effected like family of the pregnant mother.

    Going further down this rabbit hole is something I don't have the time or energy for right now, however.
    All I've been saying is....it's hypocritical to refer to a mindset on this that differs from yours as wrong, it's a mindset you disagree with.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Oh good, someone else who doesn't comprehend my religious arguments and counters with 'you're wrong'...which is literally what I said happens. Really not sure why I keep opening these threads given it fills up with 'I'd like to discuss things and I'm open to what you say...but what you say is wrong'
    I said you were wrong because you are. A story about your niece that no one has any way to verify any details of is pointless.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I'm sorry, but a pro-choice mindset DOES impact other people...the other people involved that are often, or definitievely NOT given a choice. Quite often the father of an aborted child was given no input- ok, not his body, I get it. But that aborted child most definitely is innocent in all that and given no choice at all.

    So then it comes down to...when is a child a life? That's where a lot of the disagreement lies in this.

    Do you understand that?

    And that doesn't even get into those more indirectly effected like family of the pregnant mother.

    Going further down this rabbit hole is something I don't have the time or energy for right now, however.
    All I've been saying is....it's hypocritical to refer to a mindset on this that differs from yours as wrong, it's a mindset you disagree with.
    No one has an inherent right to someone else's body. That's not something you get to make a choice on.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    I said you were wrong because you are. A story about your niece that no one has any way to verify any details of is pointless.
    Listen, I don't want to extend this further because it's pointless. You're trying to say my opinion on something is wrong and that's bull ****...it's an opinion that differs from yours. I didn't call yours wrong because I have no right to but you're insisting on calling mine wrong, which you also have no right to. Get the difference?

    And as far as choice, I didn't ONCE say a woman shouldn't have choice...not once. What I DID counter with, because it was said her choice threatens no one, is that...yes, yes it does, the unborn child gets no choice and it's not just their body involved, it's their actual life. I'll go no further down that rabbit hole here because I already mentioned the 'when does life begin' aspect that's a huge part of this.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Listen, I don't want to extend this further because it's pointless. You're trying to say my opinion on something is wrong and that's bull ****...it's an opinion that differs from yours. I didn't call yours wrong because I have no right to but you're insisting on calling mine wrong, which you also have no right to. Get the difference?

    And as far as choice, I didn't ONCE say a woman shouldn't have choice...not once. What I DID counter with, because it was said her choice threatens no one, is that...yes, yes it does, the unborn child gets no choice and it's not just their body involved, it's their actual life. I'll go no further down that rabbit hole here because I already mentioned the 'when does life begin' aspect that's a huge part of this.
    No. You seem to think you can label anything you want an opinion and it is above question, and that is simply not true. You also seem to like to play the victim a lot, to the point that it's nearly a defining feature of your posts that I've seen, but there's no reason to waste time entertaining that particular fantasy.

    What I did was point out multiple ways your assertions were wrong, and you happily ignored pretty much all of them so you could, instead, simply write me off as "not comprehending your religious arguments," without ever actually directly addressing me, or what I said, as I did with you. A secular government is not "forcing you to believe as I believe." This is a factually incorrect statement, and it was rightfully called out as such. No one, as you asserted, is legally forcing any children not to pray on their own time. Doing so would be a violation of their rights. To assert otherwise, as you did, is factually incorrect. Someone getting an abortion is not "forcing a view on you," anymore than you getting an antibiotic from your doctor is forcing your view on a Christian Scientist. This is a factually incorrect statement. You are certainly free to believe that's what is happening, but belief does not change objective reality, and no one is obligated to join you in that belief.

    As far as "when life begins," your question is a red herring. What you're really asking with it is "at what stage do we get to take away someone's autonomy?" Instinctively, we know the answer to that is there should be no stage. I am alive, you are alive, most everyone reading this right now is alive; none of us have an inherent right to another person's body. I can't force you to give me blood, or a kidney; I can't even force you to attempt CPR if I have a heart attack.

    But if we strip away object permanence and the ability to have a concept of self and a social and emotional life and stick them inside someone's body where they also undergo physical and mental changes, whether they want to or not, suddenly we have no problem forcing the issue. For someone that seems so hyper-focused on hypocrisy, you seem to be missing a pretty big example here.


    "The thing we may have to accept is that red states really like this pandemic and want to keep it.Ē" - @LOLGOP

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    No. You seem to think you can label anything you want an opinion and it is above question, and that is simply not true. You also seem to like to play the victim a lot, to the point that it's nearly a defining feature of your posts that I've seen, but there's no reason to waste time entertaining that particular fantasy.

    What I did was point out multiple ways your assertions were wrong, and you happily ignored pretty much all of them so you could, instead, simply write me off as "not comprehending your religious arguments," without ever actually directly addressing me, or what I said, as I did with you. A secular government is not "forcing you to believe as I believe." This is a factually incorrect statement, and it was rightfully called out as such. No one, as you asserted, is legally forcing any children not to pray on their own time. Doing so would be a violation of their rights. To assert otherwise, as you did, is factually incorrect. Someone getting an abortion is not "forcing a view on you," anymore than you getting an antibiotic from your doctor is forcing your view on a Christian Scientist. This is a factually incorrect statement. You are certainly free to believe that's what is happening, but belief does not change objective reality, and no one is obligated to join you in that belief.

    As far as "when life begins," your question is a red herring. What you're really asking with it is "at what stage do we get to take away someone's autonomy?" Instinctively, we know the answer to that is there should be no stage. I am alive, you are alive, most everyone reading this right now is alive; none of us have an inherent right to another person's body. I can't force you to give me blood, or a kidney; I can't even force you to attempt CPR if I have a heart attack.

    But if we strip away object permanence and the ability to have a concept of self and a social and emotional life and stick them inside someone's body where they also undergo physical and mental changes, whether they want to or not, suddenly we have no problem forcing the issue. For someone that seems so hyper-focused on hypocrisy, you seem to be missing a pretty big example here.
    Geebus dude, the very definition of an opinion is that anyone can have one...I don't have to agree with yours, you don't have to agree with mine. That IS true.

    I play the victim?! LMAO! Show me one (1) instance. Or maybe your definition of THAT word differs, too.

    And regardless of your contention, you're NOT comprehending my argument. I never ONCE said the government was forcing anyone to believe anything, yet this is, what, the third time you've said I have. I also never ONCE said getting an abortion was forcing a view on anyone.

    And I never ASKED the question of 'when life begins'...another statement you're misreading. I said the question of when life begins is a basis for a lot of the differences between many anti-abortion people and pro-choice people.

    And finally, and here's part of the problem I seem to run into here with multiple posters...you seem to be another black and white guy who can't perceive the subtle gray area differences. Show me where I even said I was against abortions in their entirety. Show me where I said a woman shouldn't have a choice. What I refuted was the idea laid out that her choice threatens no one else...when choosing to abort a baby most definitely effects that baby, that baby gets no choice. Even THEN I didn't say it should never happen.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Geebus dude, the very definition of an opinion is that anyone can have one...I don't have to agree with yours, you don't have to agree with mine. That IS true.

    I play the victim?! LMAO! Show me one (1) instance. Or maybe your definition of THAT word differs, too.

    And regardless of your contention, you're NOT comprehending my argument. I never ONCE said the government was forcing anyone to believe anything, yet this is, what, the third time you've said I have. I also never ONCE said getting an abortion was forcing a view on anyone.

    And I never ASKED the question of 'when life begins'...another statement you're misreading. I said the question of when life begins is a basis for a lot of the differences between many anti-abortion people and pro-choice people.

    And finally, and here's part of the problem I seem to run into here with multiple posters...you seem to be another black and white guy who can't perceive the subtle gray area differences. Show me where I even said I was against abortions in their entirety. Show me where I said a woman shouldn't have a choice. What I refuted was the idea laid out that her choice threatens no one else...when choosing to abort a baby most definitely effects that baby, that baby gets no choice. Even THEN I didn't say it should never happen.
    No, the very definition of an opinion is "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge," which is entirely in keeping with what you are calling opinions here.

    One instance? Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    it's not an acceptable excuse for EITHER side, but only one gets called out for it here
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    Really not sure why I keep opening these threads given it fills up with 'I'd like to discuss things and I'm open to what you say...but what you say is wrong'
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    and around here I'm sometimes 'asking for it' just stating fact, so...lol
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    But that's what I'm talking about...that's just one example of the hypocrisy Christians deal with on a daily basis from people who feel THEIR freedom is being violated by simply witnessing a Christian expressing theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    But in today's world, expressing a conservative opinion is often viewed as 'un PC' while the same is not true when expressing others.

    Alright, so I gave more than one.

    I didn't say the government was forcing you to believe anything. I said the existence of a secular government was. Mostly because that's what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    I'm not forcing anyone to believe in what I believe. However, if you think that true, would you not be forcing me to believe as you believe if you make YOUR non-religious belief part of our government? Prayer in schools- I'm not forcing your kids to pray, but you're forcing mine NOT to, yes?
    I know you're playing the game of "I said 'if you think that true,' so I didn't actually say that," but I think we both know that's a waste of time. And, again, we have the factually incorrect statement that your child is being forced not to pray, which you've still not bothered to acknowledge.

    Show me where I said you were against abortions.

    What you refuted was... nothing. The statement you were trying to refuted was:

    A pro choice opinion threatens no one.
    And you turned that into "getting an abortion threatens no one." This ignores that, one, the opinion that people should have the choice is not the same as the act of getting an abortion, and two, that the choice is and always will be abortion, which is demonstrably not true. He typed "pro-choice" and you read "get an abortion," and then you ran with it. Maybe that was the "subtle grey area" that you missed.


    "The thing we may have to accept is that red states really like this pandemic and want to keep it.Ē" - @LOLGOP

  11. #26
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    more pointless circles, done here, too...
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    more pointless circles, done here, too...
    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    something I have yet to see you do....you usually just stop responding to that portion of a thread


    "The thing we may have to accept is that red states really like this pandemic and want to keep it.Ē" - @LOLGOP

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    never compare me to droncslefty
    I didn't just stop responding without first discussing things...I'm stopping responding after my responses became pointless.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiteWolf View Post
    never compare me to droncslefty
    I didn't just stop responding without first discussing things...I'm stopping responding after my responses became pointless.
    All evidence to the contrary.


    "The thing we may have to accept is that red states really like this pandemic and want to keep it.Ē" - @LOLGOP

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    All evidence to the contrary.
    What's to the contrary? I tried to discuss things with you, it wasn't enough for you, I see no productive purpose in continuing.........far different from shown to be incorrect then just dropping the subject (especially given you only think you've shown me to be incorrect)

    What more do you expect to happen from continuing? I come here for entertainment purposes, this ain't my job.
    gotta love 'referential' treatment

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