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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Well obviously, you compare Pippen to Love and have him much lower than the majority of others. All of this is solely based on your opinion which differs from most then you call others the one homers lol. You somehow don't understand it is you repeatedly taking the outlier stance and not having much reason to back it up.

    You take offense to comparing two all time great players to most that were in very similar roles (one obviously better but is also young and developing while the lesser one was in prime). You have no issues bringing up a guy who stat padded to downgrade Pippen. You really can't make these types of stances up and when you want to talk agenda/bias/homer this is the most extreme take I have seen so far.

    Being called a homer is different than using homerism/bias in your arguments. Also I find it funny you don't recognize the people calling me homer have regularly been arguing things that no longer would remotely fly at all given where LBJ is today (because the bias against Lebron and for Kobe is often very very strong from the types I reference).
    No, I simply don't think Pippen was this amazing superstar and was more on par with very good all-star caliber players such a miller, rice, Payton, etc. Love was considered around 7 or so by most lists when he was in Minnesota and was probably ranked higher at the time than Pippen ever was, at least in my book (which again carries more weight because of how much the league grew during this time (e.g., being #7 in 2014 is much more of an accomplishment than being #10 or so in 1992). Love was traded for a highly sought after first pick. I would highly question whether anyone would've given up a first pick Pippen.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    The whole “discrediting MJ by pumping up Scottie” thing started by you discrediting Scottie to pump up Lebron’s running mates. You were trying to make it sound like LBJ’s teammates were better or on par with Scottie to show that LBJ had so much more help. Now, you’re trying to change it to make it seem like others are overvaluing MJ’s second. What a weasely move.
    Except I never brought up LBJ, like at all. You guys keep bringing up nonsense unrelated topics.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    When did I say it was the consensus? I said at the time he was considered to be around the level that I am considering him at now. I agree that he has become overrated. I don't think he was considered a superstar at the time or at least it wasnt the consensus. Superstars on elite teams don't have Vin Baker and Larry Johnson picked ahead of them on all-NBA teams and they don't miss all-NBA teams altogether. That would be like Brandon Ingram beating out KL or Luka multiple times for all-NBA honors. It would at the very least be really weird, especially since Pippen was on the best team in the league and a defending champ and had become a household name at the time. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not a big deal if I am.
    You are wrong, he was considered to be at that level. There are always random outlier years where an inferior player is picked over a superior one for an All-NBA team. The measure is consistency.

    In 89 Dale Ellis was picked over Drexler.
    In 93 Drazen Petrovic was picked over Drexler.
    In 94 Latrell Sprewell was picked over Drexler.


    According to you, that is so weird Drexler can't be considered a superstar.

    Again, you're trying to argue that Pippen being beaten out a couple times for an All-NBA team means he shouldn't be considered a superstar when Pippen has more All-NBA teams overall and more All-NBA first teams than Drexler, and who was passed over for inferior players for an All-NBA team more times than Pippen, as the guy you're arguing should be a superstar.

    It's just the worst logic.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Except I never brought up LBJ, like at all. You guys keep bringing up nonsense unrelated topics.
    You did last year in that thread and I brought it up to Valade when he questioned why you were doing it. It’s always an ulterior motive to pump up Kobe with you. Always.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    You keep calling us Lebron homers yet Valade, Gopher and myself are not fans of any team Lebron has ever been on and we’re not defending Lebron in every thread he’s mentioned in (or any if I’m not mistaken). We just think you are way off in your assessment that Kobe is better, like the vast majority of people that have commented in these threads you’ve been in (which have basically been the only threads you’re ever in). (And no, I wasn’t saying you had dupe accounts, but rather that there were obvious dupe accounts agreeing with Kobe being better sprinkled through out that thread last year that you were counting as guys agreeing with you.)

    And a clear-as-day homer calling people defending a guy on one particular issue homers is pretty ****ing lame.
    That's cool if you disagree with me about kobe, but this has nothing to do with Kobe or LBJ. Geez lol

    Honestly, you guys are far more obsessed with this than I am. This thread is about super teams and we were talking about Pippen.

    Here, for the sake of talking about basketball, how about this: LBJ is the GOAT, much better than Kobe or MJ or anyone who will ever play the game. I hate LBJ and love Kobe, but Kobe does not make the top 100 players of all time. All of LBJ's teammates have been trash and he deserves all of the credit for winning every title and deserves no blame whatsoever for the years he hasn't won. Happy?

    Now that that's all out of the way...Pippen was still was not a superstar and the Bulls were not a super team.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, I simply don't think Pippen was this amazing superstar and was more on par with very good all-star caliber players such a miller, rice, Payton, etc. Love was considered around 7 or so by most lists when he was in Minnesota and was probably ranked higher at the time than Pippen ever was, at least in my book (which again carries more weight because of how much the league grew during this time (e.g., being #7 in 2014 is much more of an accomplishment than being #10 or so in 1992). Love was traded for a highly sought after first pick. I would highly question whether anyone would've given up a first pick Pippen.
    Scottie is much higher on lists than you have him why does it only matter for Love during a very short timeframe when he was overrated due to inflated stats like we covered? Again, seemingly due to the agenda.

    The point is you use lists when convenient and write them off when they aren't. Who cares if many have actually been shared in an overall sense while you are talking a specific narrowed down period. Scottie got 3rd in MVP voting one year I could harp on that all day too as if he is top 5 if we want to ignore other context.

    I think a smart team gladly would have given a top pick for Pippen if they were a 3rd option type away from being a legit competitor at the time. You seem to really underrate Pippen and overrate Love as we have been covering (based on most opinions out there not one of ours being decider). I am not sure why it is me being biased when you take the outlier positions constantly to defend this agenda.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, I simply don't think Pippen was this amazing superstar and was more on par with very good all-star caliber players such a miller, rice, Payton, etc. Love was considered around 7 or so by most lists when he was in Minnesota and was probably ranked higher at the time than Pippen ever was, at least in my book (which again carries more weight because of how much the league grew during this time (e.g., being #7 in 2014 is much more of an accomplishment than being #10 or so in 1992). Love was traded for a highly sought after first pick. I would highly question whether anyone would've given up a first pick Pippen.
    Boston almost traded the 3rd and 6th overall picks to Chicago for Pippen. And this was in 1997.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ged-everything

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Scottie is much higher on lists than you have him why does it only matter for Love during a very short timeframe when he was overrated due to inflated stats like we covered? Again, seemingly due to the agenda.

    The point is you use lists when convenient and write them off when they aren't. Who cares if many have actually been shared one in an overall sense while you are talking a specific narrowed down period. Scottie got 3rd in MVP voting one year I could harp on that all day too as if he is top 5 if we want to ignore other context.

    I think a smart team gladly would have given a top pick for Pippen if they were a 3rd option type away from being a legit competitor at the time. You seem to really underrate Pippen and overrate Love as we have been covering (based on most opinions out there not one of ours being decider). I am not sure why it is me being biased when you take the outlier positions constantly to defend this agenda.
    This is the most frustrating thing about him, he changes his logic and what is acceptable or unacceptable depending on his point and argument.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You are wrong, he was considered to be at that level. There are always random outlier years where an inferior player is picked over a superior one for an All-NBA team. The measure is consistency.

    In 89 Dale Ellis was picked over Drexler.
    In 93 Drazen Petrovic was picked over Drexler.
    In 94 Latrell Sprewell was picked over Drexler.


    According to you, that is so weird Drexler can't be considered a superstar.

    Again, you're trying to argue that Pippen being beaten out a couple times for an All-NBA team means he shouldn't be considered a superstar when Pippen has more All-NBA teams overall and more All-NBA first teams than Drexler, and who was passed over for inferior players for an All-NBA team more times than Pippen, as the guy you're arguing should be a superstar.

    It's just the worst logic.
    Okay, what about Ewing? The thing is that the league rewards being on winning teams and Pippen was on the defending champs and the most popular team at the time so it's odd that he would get passed up that many times. We'll never know, but I think that if we swap out Drexler with Pippen in those years, he makes All-NBA everyone one of those seasons.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Scottie is much higher on lists than you have him why does it only matter for Love during a very short timeframe when he was overrated due to inflated stats like we covered? Again, seemingly due to the agenda.

    The point is you use lists when convenient and write them off when they aren't. Who cares if many have actually been shared in an overall sense while you are talking a specific narrowed down period. Scottie got 3rd in MVP voting one year I could harp on that all day too as if he is top 5 if we want to ignore other context.

    I think a smart team gladly would have given a top pick for Pippen if they were a 3rd option type away from being a legit competitor at the time. You seem to really underrate Pippen and overrate Love as we have been covering (based on most opinions out there not one of ours being decider). I am not sure why it is me being biased when you take the outlier positions constantly to defend this agenda.
    It matters how love was viewed at the time because that was the peak of Love's career (unless he makes a crazy comeback) and that is what was being referenced. I use lists when discussing how players are viewed, because they provide evidence for that. I don't really use lists to determine where a player actually ranks. The issue is that there is a a lot of subtlety in my views and you guys are too busy trying to divert the conversation to point out logical inconsistencies (when they are not inconsistent at all, there is just a bunch of context that completely gets ignored). Either engage with the points I am making or don't bother responding to my posts.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is the most frustrating thing about him, he changes his logic and what is acceptable or unacceptable depending on his point and argument.
    I don't do that, you guys are just busy trying to find inconsistencies and can't keep track of the context. Just a little while ago you used my Phil Jackson argument to do this, but it was incorrect, because I never said Phil wasn't a great coach, simply that he was overrated as the GOAT coach. It's an endless thing with you guys. Honestly, I think you guys are projecting in that you are not engaging in discussion in good faith and that's why you guys play these games and almost always divert the topic into things that are not related and why we end up discussing points that are irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 03:15 PM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It matters how love was viewed at the time because that was the peak of Love's career (unless he makes a crazy comeback) and that is what was being referenced. I use lists when discussing how players are viewed, because they provide evidence for that. I don't really use lists to determine where a player actually ranks. The issue is that there is a a lot of subtlety in my views and you guys are too busy trying to divert the conversation to point out logical inconsistencies (when they are not inconsistent at all, there is just a bunch of context that completely gets ignored). Either engage with the points I am making or don't bother responding to my posts.
    So it’s more potential rather than results? You care about opinions from writers before or during the careers and not after or late in their careers? I thought you were a statistician? So you value what you think or what you’re told before the actual circumstances instead of gathering the stats from after the circumstance? That’s weird.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    So it’s more potential rather than results? You care about opinions from writers before or during the careers and not after or late in their careers? I thought you were a statistician? So you value what you think or what you’re told before the actual circumstances instead of gathering the stats from after the circumstance? That’s weird.
    No, i said I bring up lists when we are discussing how a player was viewed at the time. A list is going to be a general representation of how players were viewed. Potential does factor in really big into this because results are not always clear, especially when guys get hurt and their careers change because of it. Love for example showed the potential to be incredibly elite (and put up those results for a few seasons in Minnesota), but it never fully materialized (maybe due to injury, maybe due to being the 3rd option, maybe some combination). Had he put up another 4-6 seasons like he did in 2014 he would be in a completely different tier, imo. I'm also not a statistician, I'm a scientist and I have expertise in statistics (as all scientists do).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 03:15 PM.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I don't do that, you guys are just busy trying to find inconsistencies and can't keep track of the context. Just a little while ago you used my Phil Jackson argument to do this, but it was incorrect, because I never said Phil wasn't a great coach, simply that he was overrated as the GOAT coach. It's an endless thing with you guys. Honestly, I think you guys are projecting in that you are not engaging in discussion in good faith and that's why you guys play these games and almost always divert the topic into things that are not related and why we end up discussing points that are irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I've made that argument about Phil before, but overrated for being the GOAT coach is different than not being a great coach. I also said earlier that he belongs in the discussion of GOAT coach, I just don't think he was the best ever coach (he was often out coached by guys who ended up getting less credit, e.g., pop, brown).

    The boston situation isn't the same though because that was a young team that had built an identity without Kyrie and Kyrie had chemistry and personal issues with them. Pippen was already an integral part of that bulls roster and had been playing with those players and coaching staff for many years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Ehh, Phil is kind of overrated. Certainly not the best coach ever. He was great at managing personalities and egos and in getting his guys in the right mental space, but was not even a great basketball coach. Phil would often get outreached in the playoffs by better coaches (e.g., Pop, Larry Brown, Sloan). Put Phil on a bad or mediocre team and he wouldnt get much out of those guys. Phil was great for the types of teams he had, but wasn't a great Xs and Os coachThe bulls did have continuity and obviously were good, but there were more talented teams than the bulls out there.

    So which is it? Or does it ……..change to fit your narrative?

  15. #195
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    And you shouldn’t try to “keep track of the context” if you’re being truthful and sincere.

    I honestly think that he doesn’t think he’s being disingenuous by changing the context and narrative to pump up his main goal.

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