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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Solid post Scoots.
    The only solid post I've seen in this thread such far to be honest.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You are not remembering him correctly. Here is what everyone thinks of him:

    ESPN greatest players of all-time:

    Pippen #21
    Ewing #37
    Drexler #57

    Slam's Top 100 basketball players ever:

    Pippen #22
    Ewing #30
    Drexler #43


    Then you get down to less mainstream lists, such as:

    Complex Top 30:

    https://www.complex.com/sports/best-...ll-time-ranked

    Pippen #24
    Ewing/Drexler: not even Top 30


    Lineups.com:

    https://www.lineups.com/articles/top...yers-all-time/

    Pippen #24
    Drexler #33
    Ewing #34

    Medium:

    https://medium.com/top-level-sports/...e-6623fdeabf14

    Drexler #20
    Pippen #29
    Ewing #31

    Ranker:

    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time

    Pippen #16
    Ewing #26
    Drexler #69

    Hoops Habit:

    https://hoopshabit.com/2021/03/16/nb...ayers-time/16/

    Pippen #25
    Ewing #36
    Drexler #41

    Bleacher Report:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...op-50-revealed

    Pippen #25
    Drexler #32
    Ewing #38


    And here's where your spin about LBJ fans actually becomes laughable: I actually think Scottie Pippen is overrated historically. I don't think he's as high as he's always ranked, nor do I think Ewing or Drexler are as low as they are ranked, but I do think they're all roughly in the same tier (especially impact wise).

    So yes, you are very much misremembering and no, there's no agenda from me here.
    Not based on their accomplishments man. Again if we take their best seasons, it's not really very close.

    The spin you're referring to makes a lot more sense for LBJ fans than for me. Pippen could be way better than Drexler and Ewing and it has zero impact on my so-called agenda. How great Pippen was in no way affects how great Kobe and LBJ were/are. It's silly to even try to turn it into something like that
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 02:16 PM.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not based on their accomplishments man. The spin makes a lot more sense for LBJ fans than for me. Pippen could be way better than Drexler and Ewing and it has zero impact on my so-called agenda. How great Pippen was in no way affects how great Kobe and LBJ were/are
    Of course it does, you're an anti-LeBron guy who doesn't think he has an agenda.

    The fact is, you are definitely misremembering how highly Pippen was thought of, and you are most certainly underestimating how highly he is thought of now.


    Where we are all in agreement is that I think where he is ranked on those lists is massively overrating him. Which would be an odd sentiment for someone to take if they had a boost Pippen for an LBJ spin agenda...

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Not based on their accomplishments man. Again if we take their best seasons, it's not really very close.
    No offense, but how? You've already admitted you're a statistician who doesn't think we should use stats. So there's no way to actually compare their best seasons with you other than unadultered opinion.

  5. #170
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    Critisism of forming super-teams

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The only solid post I've seen in this thread such far to be honest.
    How about this one: Reggie Miller was a more valuable basketball player Scottie Pippen. Scottie like James Worthy before him was a highly over rated open court player most people wouldn’t remember if it wasn’t for who they played with


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Young Kobe was a true #1, whereas Pippen was never close that. We've been over this man. Kobe was the closer and the main focus on the defense for the entire 4th quarters with shaq. Pippen never was. Pippen kind of sucked in the half court, Kobe excelled. There is a massive gap between those 5ish spots and if prime Pippen were in the league in 2001, I'm not sure he even cracks the top 15 (he arguably didnt crack in many of his prime years with Bulls, I think he did but a strong case can be made for a lot of the other guys I've mentioned). Save your response here, I know what you are going to say...so I will preempt my response...I disagree

    The only motive that makes sense here is for you guys who are on record saying you love LBJ trying to play up how dominant Pippen was. Again, Kobe has absoutely nothing to do with this conversation.
    Shaq was the true #1, Kobe was the clear #2 on that team. We don't really know how either would have faired as the #1 outside of some RS and the one season people reference of Scottie without MJ where the team made 2nd round of playoffs. In the RS in 2002 the team was 12-10 when Shaq did not play though and 5-10 the following. People have tried noting without MJ or Grant the Bulls falling off to around .500 after the playoff run which is kinda like those lakers teams without Shaq granted for short stretches. Ill save the rest I guess but the thing is we all knew you would play the exact same games because if you admit young Kobe and Pippen in similar roles are close it destroys your narrative. You have no issues calling the clear best player/leader of the team in Lebron close to AD in a different role completely and clearly lesser on the same team though at the same time.

    I have been accused of being an LBJ homer plenty for takes like he is going to end up higher than Kobe, he has top 5 ever talent etc. etc. it really doesn't mean much coming from the same types of posters using anything possible to push certain agendas. Go figure over time it isn't me that needs to constantly shift my views because I care about the context in full.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-16-2021 at 02:36 PM.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    How about this one: Reggie Miller was clearly a more valuable basketball player Scottie Pippen. Scottie like James Worthy before him was a highly over rated open court player most people wouldn’t remember if it wasn’t for who they played with
    I definitely agree with Reggie being a more valuable player than Scottie, I also think he's more valuable than Ewing and Drexler too. He is historically underrated (and massively so by BigMoves it appears).

    As for the second part, I wouldn't go so far as to say they wouldn't be remembered if they played elsewhere, but I agree they wouldn't be ranked as high. But again, I think Pippen's rankings are too high on all the lists so of course I'd think that.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Of course it does, you're an anti-LeBron guy who doesn't think he has an agenda.

    The fact is, you are definitely misremembering how highly Pippen was thought of, and you are most certainly underestimating how highly he is thought of now.


    Where we are all in agreement is that I think where he is ranked on those lists is massively overrating him. Which would be an odd sentiment for someone to take if they had a boost Pippen for an LBJ spin agenda...
    I'm not anti LBJ. Others have come on here and even noted that I quite often defend LBJ on the laker forum and this has nothing to do with LBJ, but it is the case that LBJ fans try to play up how great Pippen was to discredit MJ (as if that somehow would matter). I think Pippen has become way overrated recently and so I think my perception of that is accurate. I could be misremembering how highly he was thought of, but his numbers do seem more on par #2 guys I've mentioned and I definitely don't consider him to be on par with Ewing or Drexler. If I'm picking team, I'm taking Ewing many times over Pippen and in a heartbeat. That doesn't mean I don't think Pippen was a great player, but I don't consider him a superstar. It sounds like maybe you don't either and you simply don't consider Ewing or Drexler superstars.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not anti LBJ. Others have come on here and even noted that I quite often defend LBJ on the laker forum and this has nothing to do with LBJ, but it is the case that LBJ fans try to play up how great Pippen was to discredit MJ (as if that somehow would matter). I think Pippen has become way overrated recently and so I think my perception of that is accurate. I could be misremembering how highly he was thought of, but his numbers do seem more on par #2 guys I've mentioned and I definitely don't consider him to be on par with Ewing or Drexler. If I'm picking team, I'm taking Ewing many times over Pippen and in a heartbeat. That doesn't mean I don't think Pippen was a great player, but I don't consider him a superstar. It sounds like maybe you don't either and you simply don't consider Ewing or Drexler superstars.
    Well in that case all of the NBA are LBJ fans because I showed you the lists, he is considered that high by pretty much everywhere.

    You are misremembering, I don't know how many times I can say that before it sinks in. I don't care that you don't think he's on par with Ewing or Drexler, that's your opinion. It's when you use faulty logic or revise history to make it seem like Pippen wasn't as highly thought of as he was that I have a problem with.

    Essentially, you are trying to claim your opinion on him was the consensus or majority, when it is and was in fact a minority. Pippen is considered around a Top 25 player all-time, whereas Drexler and Ewing are considered between 30th and 40th roughly. I definitely disagree with those rankings, but I'm not going to say that is not where they are thought of because I disagree.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Shaq was the true #1, Kobe was the clear #2 on that team. We don't really know how either would have faired as the #1 outside of some RS and the one season people reference of Scottie without MJ where the team made 2nd round of playoffs. In the RS in 2002 the team was 12-10 when Shaq did not play though and 19-14 the following. People have tried noting without MJ or Grant the Bulls falling off to around .500 after the playoff run which is kinda like those lakers teams without Shaq granted for short stretches. Ill save the rest I guess but the thing is we all knew you would play the exact same games because if you admit young Kobe and Pippen in similar roles are close it destroys your narrative. You have no issues calling the clear best player/leader of the team in Lebron close to AD in a different role completely and clearly lesser on the same team though at the same time.

    I have been accused of being an LBJ homer plenty for takes like he is going to end up higher than Kobe, he has top 5 ever talent etc. etc. it really doesn't mean much coming from the same types of posters using anything possible to push certain agendas. Go figure over time it isn't me that needs to constantly shift my views because I care about the context in full.
    And no, I don't think young Kobe and Pippen were close (I find it offensive that anyone would make that argument and to me shows a clear bias from anyone making that argument, but I've noted all of this already many times over). I could say "I pick LBJ over Kobe by a lot" and I still wouldn't think 3-peat Kobe and Pippen were close. Kobe was a #1 playing alongside Shaq, Pippen was never close to being a #1. That's all I will repeat on that.

    Good, glad we agree your an LBJ homer. Not related to Pippen, but at leasts you acknowledge that you've been called that many times (in case it wasn't obvious, which it clearly was).

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not anti LBJ. Others have come on here and even noted that I quite often defend LBJ on the laker forum and this has nothing to do with LBJ, but it is the case that LBJ fans try to play up how great Pippen was to discredit MJ (as if that somehow would matter). I think Pippen has become way overrated recently and so I think my perception of that is accurate. I could be misremembering how highly he was thought of, but his numbers do seem more on par #2 guys I've mentioned and I definitely don't consider him to be on par with Ewing or Drexler. If I'm picking team, I'm taking Ewing many times over Pippen and in a heartbeat. That doesn't mean I don't think Pippen was a great player, but I don't consider him a superstar. It sounds like maybe you don't either and you simply don't consider Ewing or Drexler superstars.
    The whole “discrediting MJ by pumping up Scottie” thing started by you discrediting Scottie to pump up Lebron’s running mates. You were trying to make it sound like LBJ’s teammates were better or on par with Scottie to show that LBJ had so much more help. Now, you’re trying to change it to make it seem like others are overvaluing MJ’s second. What a weasely move.

  12. #177
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    I'd rather focus on our agreement, Scottie Pippen is overrated by the general NBA community.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    And no, I don't think young Kobe and Pippen were close (I find it offensive that anyone would make that argument and to me shows a clear bias from anyone making that argument, but I've noted all of this already many times over). I could say "I pick LBJ over Kobe by a lot" and I still wouldn't think 3-peat Kobe and Pippen were close. Kobe was a #1 playing alongside Shaq, Pippen was never close to being a #1. That's all I will repeat on that.

    Good, glad we agree your an LBJ homer. Not related to Pippen, but at leasts you acknowledge that you've been called that many times (in case it wasn't obvious, which it clearly was).
    Well obviously, you compare Pippen to Love and have him much lower than the majority of others. All of this is solely based on your opinion which differs from most then you call others the one homers lol. You somehow don't understand it is you repeatedly taking the outlier stance and not having much reason to back it up.

    You take offense to comparing two all time great players to most that were in very similar roles (one obviously better but is also young and developing while the lesser one was in prime). You have no issues bringing up a guy who stat padded to downgrade Pippen. You really can't make these types of stances up and when you want to talk agenda/bias/homer this is the most extreme take I have seen so far.

    Being called a homer is different than using homerism/bias in your arguments. Also I find it funny you don't recognize the people calling me homer have regularly been arguing things that no longer would remotely fly at all given where LBJ is today (because the bias against Lebron and for Kobe is often very very strong from the types I reference).

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    And no, I don't think young Kobe and Pippen were close (I find it offensive that anyone would make that argument and to me shows a clear bias from anyone making that argument, but I've noted all of this already many times over). I could say "I pick LBJ over Kobe by a lot" and I still wouldn't think 3-peat Kobe and Pippen were close. Kobe was a #1 playing alongside Shaq, Pippen was never close to being a #1. That's all I will repeat on that.

    Good, glad we agree your an LBJ homer. Not related to Pippen, but at leasts you acknowledge that you've been called that many times (in case it wasn't obvious, which it clearly was).
    You keep calling us Lebron homers yet Valade, Gopher and myself are not fans of any team Lebron has ever been on and we’re not defending Lebron in every thread he’s mentioned in (or any if I’m not mistaken). We just think you are way off in your assessment that Kobe is better, like the vast majority of people that have commented in these threads you’ve been in (which have basically been the only threads you’re ever in). (And no, I wasn’t saying you had dupe accounts, but rather that there were obvious dupe accounts agreeing with Kobe being better sprinkled through out that thread last year that you were counting as guys agreeing with you.)

    And a clear-as-day homer calling people defending a guy on one particular issue homers is pretty ****ing lame.
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 06-16-2021 at 02:44 PM.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well in that case all of the NBA are LBJ fans because I showed you the lists, he is considered that high by pretty much everywhere.

    You are misremembering, I don't know how many times I can say that before it sinks in. I don't care that you don't think he's on par with Ewing or Drexler, that's your opinion. It's when you use faulty logic or revise history to make it seem like Pippen wasn't as highly thought of as he was that I have a problem with.

    Essentially, you are trying to claim your opinion on him was the consensus or majority, when it is and was in fact a minority. Pippen is considered around a Top 25 player all-time, whereas Drexler and Ewing are considered between 30th and 40th roughly. I definitely disagree with those rankings, but I'm not going to say that is not where they are thought of because I disagree.
    When did I say it was the consensus? I said at the time he was considered to be around the level that I am considering him at now. I agree that he has become overrated. I don't think he was considered a superstar at the time or at least it wasnt the consensus. Superstars on elite teams don't have Vin Baker and Larry Johnson picked ahead of them on all-NBA teams and they don't miss all-NBA teams altogether. That would be like Brandon Ingram beating out KL or Luka multiple times for all-NBA honors. It would at the very least be really weird, especially since Pippen was on the best team in the league and a defending champ and had become a household name at the time. Maybe I'm wrong and it's not a big deal if I am.

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