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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    The issue is the way you describe ones support as superstars not the others for seemingly obvious reasons in that other thread.

    When it comes to pippin you have explained he isnít a superstar but young Kobe on the 3 peat was. Thatís why you count ones rings not the other so that term carries a ton of weight in your Lebron/Kobe discussion we were all part of.

    Given the weight you have put on that term in those discussions and where you constantly land on if the lesser players comparatively are one, it sure seems like more of an agenda as many have noted previously. I went in depth on klove Scottie in that thread for similar reasons


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    I explained that kobe was a top 10 player for all of them and top 5 for all but the first (and was probably top 5-7 in 2000). In 01 and 02, I have kobe at #2 in the league and I think most had him in the top 4 or so. The highest I ever had Pippen is maybe #8 (this is if I'm being very generous) and mostly because other guys were out certain seasons and missed a lot of time, but you could still make a very strong case for about 5-8 other guys in the league at that time. I think a case can be made that kobe wasnt a full blown superstar in 2000, but I think starting in 01, he was in full blown superstar tier and he was regularly mentioned as being arguably the best player in the game. Pippen never reached that level, imo.

    With Love, I see your point about his numbers being inflated, but I still hold to the idea that very few could put up his numbers even if they were being featured like you say Love was (I'm not going to debate that because you are a wolves fan would know better than me since you saw him play nightly).

  2. #152
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    Critisism of forming super-teams

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Well the reason Scottie gets so much credit for getting out of the first round is because it was literally a one out of one sample size. If that team had been without MJ for a decade straight and he got out of the 1st once, the feat wouldn't have been in held in nearly as high a regard.
    I donít think so. I think itís because itís become part of the MJ/LeBron debate and LeBron needs hyperbole. Its not like the they got to finals or he had epic performances during those playoffs. He actually benched himself early in the series against the Knicks and couldnít hit the side of a barn in the second half of game 7. Add in his play style and post season performance as a secondary option over the rest of his career I donít see an argument for putting him on the Ewing/Dexler level. Maybe your just being the ying to big moves yang.


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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    When it's a combination of you not thinking Pippen was as good as we all do, but also thinking Kyrie, Bosh and Love were better than we all do, misremembering how high stature Pippen was regarded in, while overestimating how high a stature the other three were regarded in, it becomes a pattern.

    Also, it shows you really don't know what you're talking about when you say Pippen became a full blown role player in Portland. Pippen was the leader of the team. He was referred to as such as well:

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...n-blazers.html

    Pippen Leads Trail Blazers to Conference Finals
    I don't know if that's the correct characterization. I'm not sure everyone on here thinks of Pippen as highly as you and a few others might (but maybe they do). I'm not misremembering Pippen at all. I think I remember him just the right way. Ignoring the all-star thing in 91, he also didn't make any all-nba team in 91 (top 15 players essentially) and was only second team in 92...Mullen was picked ahead of him and rightfully so, because he was better in 92. In 93, he was third team and Larry Johnson was picked ahead of him. In 97 he was second team and grant hill was picked ahead. In 98 he was 3rd team and vin baker was picked ahead of him.

    This is around the the tier of players that Pippen was viewed to be in. Guys who were all-stars but not necessarily elite players. Pippen didn't make another all-NBA team after that. Pippen was on the level of Payton, Rice, Miller, Allen, etc. Pippen might've been a leader, but he was definitely a role player in Portland. Lots of leaders are role players (e.g. Fisher).

    Here's a spin for you...maybe it's that those who are big LBJ fans who have a major agenda and tend to overrate Pippen and put him on the same tier as guys like Drexler and Ewing, despite not reaching their level of accomplishments or putting up comparable seasons. If we take the best years of Drexler and Ewing for example and compare them to Pippen's best years I think it becomes pretty clear who doesn't belong. On the other hand, if we take the best years of Love, Kyrie, and Bosh and compare them to Pippen it seems a lot more reasonable to put him in this latter group than the former you were arguing for.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I donít think so. I think itís because itís become part of the MJ/LeBron debate and LeBron needs hyperbole. Its not like the they got to finals or he had epic performances during those playoffs. He actually benched himself early in the series against the Knicks and couldnít hit the side of a barn in the second half of game 7. Add in his play style and post season performance over the rest of his career I donít see an argument for putting him on the Ewing/Dexler level. Maybe your just being the ying to big moves yang
    Doubt it, because pretty much most of the basketball community believes heís a legend and around their level. Unless your so anti-bron you think they put Pippen on the Dream Team or the Top 50 players ever list knowing one day they would be able to inflate Pippenís value to argue LeBron vs MJ...

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Doubt it, because pretty much most of the basketball community believes heís a legend and around their level. Unless your so anti-bron you think they put Pippen on the Dream Team or the Top 50 players ever list knowing one day they would be able to inflate Pippenís value to argue LeBron vs MJ...
    It's not as if I'm saying he wasnt a great player. He just wasn't a superstar in my book. I don't know why you keep making such a big deal about being on the dream team. Christian Laettner was on the dream team too and so was Mullen. It was a nice accomplishment and he was one of the best players in the league (around top 8-13 or so) in 92. I will note that it's not quite the same as being in that category in today's NBA because there were fewer excellent players in the league at the time than now.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I explained that kobe was a top 10 player for all of them and top 5 for all but the first (and was probably top 5-7 in 2000). In 01 and 02, I have kobe at #2 in the league and I think most had him in the top 4 or so. The highest I ever had Pippen is maybe #8 (this is if I'm being very generous) and mostly because other guys were out certain seasons and missed a lot of time, but you could still make a very strong case for about 5-8 other guys in the league at that time. I think a case can be made that kobe wasnt a full blown superstar in 2000, but I think starting in 01, he was in full blown superstar tier and he was regularly mentioned as being arguably the best player in the game. Pippen never reached that level, imo.

    With Love, I see your point about his numbers being inflated, but I still hold to the idea that very few could put up his numbers even if they were being featured like you say Love was (I'm not going to debate that because you are a wolves fan would know better than me since you saw him play nightly).
    Sure but you have also said that you don't really distinguish or care much about who is best on the team just recently so why would this small difference matter all of a sudden? Kobe being top 5ish in the league and Pippen being 10ish in the league is pretty close. In fact I think the other thread you were also noting just how close alot of these guys at the top are and how you didn't overly care if Lebron was the best on his team despite me noting a 4 or so spot gap between him and AD.

    This is why I note people pointing out an agenda. The conversations and terms constantly seem based on a view of players that doesn't generally fit with others views. Then those terms being used to determine value of rings etc. to compare the very top guys. It all just seems very clearly like you keep choosing whatever argument will help the narrative. It isn't that one or two opinions seem out there it is that you constantly seem to choose ones fitting that agenda going against most other people.

    Love just isn't close to Pippens impact as a player, he could get volume when a team is catered to but that doesn't make someone a superstar (especially if Pippen often considered top 40ish all time is not). I think that one really exposed it the most especially since part of your argument against others was inflated stats lol. Again though each one of the players/examples from Love to Pippen to Kyrie to young Kobe to the recent Lakers title just seems you are constantly all over the place trying to fit these narratives into your basic agenda.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-16-2021 at 01:55 PM.

  7. #157
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    Critisism of forming super-teams

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Doubt it, because pretty much most of the basketball community believes heís a legend and around their level. Unless your so anti-bron you think they put Pippen on the Dream Team or the Top 50 players ever list knowing one day they would be able to inflate Pippenís value to argue LeBron vs MJ...
    Most the basketball community does not think Scottie Pippen could lead a contender for a decade like those other guys. Seems like the only thing you can point to that says he could he a semi impressive second round loss. Iíd bet the vast majority of the basketball community that watched his career would say he could not lead like those guys and was definitely below them


    As for the top 50 I mention this before. Scottie was a bubble guy then and yet he is actually ranked higher now by a lot of people.



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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Sure but you have also said that you don't really distinguish or care much about who is best on the team just recently so why would this small difference matter all of a sudden? Kobe being top 5ish in the league and Pippen being 10ish in the league is pretty close. In fact I think the other thread you were also noting just how close alot of these guys at the top are and how you didn't overly care if Lebron was the best on his team despite me noting a 4 or so spot gap between him and AD.

    This is why I note people pointing out an agenda. The conversations and terms constantly seem based on a view of players that doesn't generally fit with others views. Then those terms being used to determine value of rings etc. to compare the very top guys. It all just seems very clearly like you keep choosing whatever argument will help the narrative. It isn't that one or two opinions seem out there it is that you constantly seem to choose ones fitting that agenda going against most other people.

    Love just isn't close to Pippens impact as a player, he could get volume when a team is catered to but that doesn't make someone elite. I think that one really exposed it the most especially since part of your argument against others was inflated stats lol. Again though each one of the players/examples from Love to Pippen to Kyrie to young Kobe to the recent Lakers title just seems you are constantly all over the place trying to fit these narratives into your basic agenda.
    Well I dont think Pippen was near the top (i.e., I think there is a considerable gap between 01 version of kobe any version of Pippen and I think there is a notable gap between any version of Pippen and prime versions of Drexler and Ewing) and being top 5 in 2001 is a much bigger accomplishment than being around 8-13 or so in 92 because the league grew quite a decent amount in that time and there were a lot of great players at the time.

    We've discussed most of this before and suffice it to say that I very strongly disagree with your position here, so I don't really want to rehash this again. That was what the kobe vs. lbj thread was.

    I will say that Pippen not being as great as some are saying, in my view, has absolutely zero baring on the Kobe or LBJ debate or on where either of those two rank and so this idea about an agenda is silly and simply boils down to you guys trying to discredit someone by attacking their motives rather than engaging with the points they are actually making. The only agenda here that would make any sense is for LBJ fans trying to make the LBJ vs. MJ comparison more sensible and so trying to play up how great of a player Pippen was.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 02:01 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well I dont think Pippen was near the top and being top 5 in 2001 is a much bigger accomplishment than being around 8-13 or so in 92 because the league grew quite a decent amount in that time and there were a lot of great players at the time.

    We've discussed most of this before and suffice it to say that I very strongly disagree with your position here, so I don't really want to rehash this again. That was what the kobe vs. lbj thread was.

    I will say that Pippen not being as great as some are saying, in my view, has absolutely zero baring on the Kobe or LBJ debate or on where either of those two rank and so this idea about an agenda is silly and simply boils down to you guys trying to discredit someone by attacking their motives rather than engaging with the points they are actually making.
    So the difference between being the best player, focus of the defense, best creator for the team doesn't matter much. A potential difference in 5ish subjective spots on a list comparing players of different eras might though. Again this seems like your own narrative to fit the agenda. Young Kobe was in a role closer to Pippen at the time than to an MJ and Shaq was that dominating presence we have been through all this.

    My issue is with the seemingly dishonest conversations around those players. Your motives seem to be the driver but I can't say for sure why you argued Love over Pippen. You say you don't wanna really rehash it which is fine but the motive seeming obvious is going to be noted if we aren't getting into the specifics.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Most the basketball community does not think Scottie Pippen could lead a contender for a decade like those other guys. Seems like the only thing you can point to that says he could he a semi impressive second round loss. Iíd bet the vast majority of the basketball community that watched his career would say he could not lead like those guys and was definitely below them


    As for the top 50 I mention this before. Scottie was a bubble guy then and yet he is actually ranked higher now by a lot of people.



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    Yeah, that's the funny part. I definitely don't think he cracks the top 50 at this point.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I don't know if that's the correct characterization. I'm not sure everyone on here thinks of Pippen as highly as you and a few others might (but maybe they do). I'm not misremembering Pippen at all. I think I remember him just the right way. Ignoring the all-star thing in 91, he also didn't make any all-nba team in 91 (top 15 players essentially) and was only second team in 92...Mullen was picked ahead of him and rightfully so, because he was better in 92. In 93, he was third team and Larry Johnson was picked ahead of him. In 97 he was second team and grant hill was picked ahead. In 98 he was 3rd team and vin baker was picked ahead of him.

    This is around the the tier of players that Pippen was viewed to be in. Guys who were all-stars but not necessarily elite players. Pippen didn't make another all-NBA team after that. Pippen was on the level of Payton, Rice, Miller, Allen, etc. Pippen might've been a leader, but he was definitely a role player in Portland. Lots of leaders are role players (e.g. Fisher).

    Here's a spin for you...maybe it's that those who are big LBJ fans who have a major agenda and tend to overrate Pippen and put him on the same tier as guys like Drexler and Ewing, despite not reaching their level of accomplishments or putting up comparable seasons. If we take the best years of Drexler and Ewing for example and compare them to Pippen's best years I think it becomes pretty clear who doesn't belong. On the other hand, if we take the best years of Love, Kyrie, and Bosh and compare them to Pippen it seems a lot more reasonable to put him in this latter group than the former you were arguing for.
    You are not remembering him correctly. Here is what everyone thinks of him:

    ESPN greatest players of all-time:

    Pippen #21
    Ewing #37
    Drexler #57

    Slam's Top 100 basketball players ever:

    Pippen #22
    Ewing #30
    Drexler #43


    Then you get down to less mainstream lists, such as:

    Complex Top 30:

    https://www.complex.com/sports/best-...ll-time-ranked

    Pippen #24
    Ewing/Drexler: not even Top 30


    Lineups.com:

    https://www.lineups.com/articles/top...yers-all-time/

    Pippen #24
    Drexler #33
    Ewing #34

    Medium:

    https://medium.com/top-level-sports/...e-6623fdeabf14

    Drexler #20
    Pippen #29
    Ewing #31

    Ranker:

    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time

    Pippen #16
    Ewing #26
    Drexler #69

    Hoops Habit:

    https://hoopshabit.com/2021/03/16/nb...ayers-time/16/

    Pippen #25
    Ewing #36
    Drexler #41

    Bleacher Report:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...op-50-revealed

    Pippen #25
    Drexler #32
    Ewing #38


    And here's where your spin about LBJ fans actually becomes laughable: I actually think Scottie Pippen is overrated historically. I don't think he's as high as he's always ranked, nor do I think Ewing or Drexler are as low as they are ranked, but I do think they're all roughly in the same tier (especially impact wise).

    So yes, you are very much misremembering and no, there's no agenda from me here.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Most the basketball community does not think Scottie Pippen could lead a contender for a decade like those other guys. Seems like the only thing you can point to that says he could he a semi impressive second round loss. Iíd bet the vast majority of the basketball community that watched his career would say he could not lead like those guys and was definitely below them

    As for the top 50 I mention this before. Scottie was a bubble guy then and yet he is actually ranked higher now by a lot of people.
    And this is where you get egg on your face. Look at the lists I posted, Scottie is ranked very highly and held in very high regard by the basketball community. So much so that I disagree with how highly a regard he's held in.

  13. #163
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    Critisism of forming super-teams

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You are not remembering him correctly. Here is what everyone thinks of him:

    ESPN greatest players of all-time:

    Pippen #21
    Ewing #37
    Drexler #57

    Slam's Top 100 basketball players ever:

    Pippen #22
    Ewing #30
    Drexler #43


    Then you get down to less mainstream lists, such as:

    Complex Top 30:

    https://www.complex.com/sports/best-...ll-time-ranked

    Pippen #24
    Ewing/Drexler: not even Top 30


    Lineups.com:

    https://www.lineups.com/articles/top...yers-all-time/

    Pippen #24
    Drexler #33
    Ewing #34

    Medium:

    https://medium.com/top-level-sports/...e-6623fdeabf14

    Drexler #20
    Pippen #29
    Ewing #31

    Ranker:

    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time

    Pippen #16
    Ewing #26
    Drexler #69

    Hoops Habit:

    https://hoopshabit.com/2021/03/16/nb...ayers-time/16/

    Pippen #25
    Ewing #36
    Drexler #41

    Bleacher Report:

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...op-50-revealed

    Pippen #25
    Drexler #32
    Ewing #38


    And here's where your spin about LBJ fans actually becomes laughable: I actually think Scottie Pippen is overrated historically. I don't think he's as high as he's always ranked, nor do I think Ewing or Drexler are as low as they are ranked, but I do think they're all roughly in the same tier (especially impact wise).

    So yes, you are very much misremembering and no, there's no agenda from me here.
    Solid post Scoots.


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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    So the difference between being the best player, focus of the defense, best creator for the team doesn't matter much. A potential difference in 5ish subjective spots on a list comparing players of different eras might though. Again this seems like your own narrative to fit the agenda. Young Kobe was in a role closer to Pippen at the time than to an MJ and Shaq was that dominating presence we have been through all this.

    My issue is with the seemingly dishonest conversations around those players. Your motives seem to be the driver but I can't say for sure why you argued Love over Pippen. You say you don't wanna really rehash it which is fine but the motive seeming obvious is going to be noted if we aren't getting into the specifics.
    Young Kobe was a true #1, whereas Pippen was never close that. We've been over this man. Kobe was the closer and the main focus on the defense for the entire 4th quarters with shaq. Pippen never was. Pippen kind of sucked in the half court, Kobe excelled. There is a massive gap between those 5ish spots and if prime Pippen were in the league in 2001, I'm not sure he even cracks the top 15 (he arguably didnt crack in many of his prime years with Bulls, I think he did but a strong case can be made for a lot of the other guys I've mentioned). Save your response here, I know what you are going to say...so I will preempt my response...I disagree

    The only motive that makes sense here is for you guys who are on record saying you love LBJ trying to play up how dominant Pippen was. Again, Kobe has absoutely nothing to do with this conversation.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's not as if I'm saying he wasnt a great player. He just wasn't a superstar in my book. I don't know why you keep making such a big deal about being on the dream team. Christian Laettner was on the dream team too and so was Mullen. It was a nice accomplishment and he was one of the best players in the league (around top 8-13 or so) in 92. I will note that it's not quite the same as being in that category in today's NBA because there were fewer excellent players in the league at the time than now.
    Conversely, I don't know why you're harping so much on All-NBA teams considering

    Pippen made more All-NBA teams than Drexler (7 to 5), including more All-NBA 1st teams (1 to 3) and as many All-NBA 2nd teams (2 to 2)


    If you want to use them to say "this the caliber of player Pippen was" he was at, and perceived to be at a superior caliber to Drexler throughout the time period.

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