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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    The debate is BigMoves (and to a lesser extent Ewing) says Pippen is not on the same level as Drexler or Ewing because they were #1's whereas because of his offensive limitations, he views Pippen as a #2 and therefore not on their level (that being Ewing and Drexler were superstars while Pippen was not).
    oh yeah i don't really see how Drexler would have an argument here lol. Pippen just nets out better in a million different ways. The gap in their scoring value isn't wide enough to make up for the gap on defense, not to mention that Pippen could legit run an offense, and create for others at a high level.

    (also not to mention that Drexler really only had like 2 great playoff runs, and was outplayed by Porter in some others)

    Ewing is more interesting tho tbh. That one feels super close and I might honestly lean Ewing, idk.

  2. #257
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    Drexler is in the tier of guys like Ray Allen and Paul Pierce as opposed to being close to that top 25-30 all time club

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    No one said they're superstars but when you win 55 games without the GOAT, you're 100 percent a super team.


    It's not even a remote possibly they weren't.

    The league was NOT the same then as it is now. So yes, Kukoc, Harper, Armstrong, Grant, Kerr are all very very strong supporting players.

    Don't point out how many ppg they had...that isn't relevant lol.


    It's all relative to the era. In that era, they were a super team.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    How old are you? I somehow SERIOUSLY doubt you even watched Jordan.

    Nobody considers the Bulls a super team, just a great team.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Of course it is but some arguments are still better than others based on evidence we can point to. The stats/data/rankings others share aren't less valuable than the ones you do it's just you are ignoring certain aspects to make your points. That's always going to be called out when you approach topics that way it seems disingenuous to have those types of double standards.

    In overall impact they were closer than Pippen is to Love for example though. You often call things like young Kobe and Peak Shaq somewhat close as well then when it gets to Pippen it changes. The way you switch up whether all of these top guys are pretty close so it isn't really that crazy to think (Kobe vs Lebron) or there is no way Pippen is a superstar he just wasn't close to Ewing or Drexler is pretty interesting. Pippens best year is the only real example we got of him and we know how variable stuff like this can be. For him to be 8th in scoring that season and 19th in assists is pretty impressive offensively while leading a team to 2nd round as well (no player with more points had as many assists per game). Ewing did have a better scoring year obviously a few years prior and was 3rd right above Tom Chambers that year but never was the playmaker as a point forward Pippen was either. As a lot of those list show many even have Pippen higher let alone not close rankings wise from others.

    Yes they are, focusing on Love to prop him up like that instead of full context and ignoring a similar look for Pippen is pretty crazy. They are discounting Pippen's impact in the one instance we saw him "lead a team" as your subjective aspect supposedly cares a lot as well to prop up someone never leading to the playoffs. Again the point is it just all seems very inconsistent. Valade has shown plenty of examples of where Scottie was MVP All NBA rankings wise and I covered the stats already plenty as we noted too. You just seem very inconsistent in how you handle the evidence.
    See, I don't consider Pippen a top guy so I don't factor him into that conversation of guys who were close. I think the top guys are a level or two above your average superstar and I think Pippen is maybe 1 level below your average superstar. The Knicks ran the offense through Ewing. Teams sent double and triple teams to stop Ewing. That opened everything up for everyone else. Pippen just didn't have that type of impact. Teams were generally happy to let Pippen do whatever he wanted in the half court. Yeah, Pippen was a good playmaker, but just too offensively limited for me to consider him on the same tier. Pippen led the team in the sense that he was the best player, but he wasn't really a leader, imo, which he demonstrated by having a historic meltdown that would've cost his team the game if not for Kukoc bailing out the team.

    To your point about Love, I've explained I reference that short time span because that is what I was initially referring to when I made the comparison. 2014 Love compared to Pippen. As I've also noted, we don't know what would've happened with love if he stays a #1 and doesn't get hurt. I thin if he stays in Minnesota and has a similar career to KG prior to leaving Boston (winning wise) and puts up another 4-7 seasons like 2014, I don't think too many would pick Pippen over Love (I surely wouldnt) and it's because Love would've ended up with a first ballot HOF caliber career where he just didn't end up winning much.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    And I care about impact. Pippen's impact was as great as Drexler's for sure.
    This is where it gets difficult to have further discussion because I mostly do not agree that current impact measures fully capture what I care about, which is the extent to which a superstar player warps the floor and you disagree with this. I think their basic stats on their best seasons show a clear difference between Pippen and Drexler and Ewing. I'm basing my assessment on the eye test and on these basic stats, which basically supports my assessment via the eye test.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 07:58 PM.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    See, I don't consider Pippen a top guy so I don't factor him into that conversation of guys who were close. I think the top guys are a level or two above your average superstar and I think Pippen is maybe 1 level below your average superstar. The Knicks ran the offense through Ewing. Teams sent double and triple teams to stop Ewing. That opened everything up for everyone else. Pippen just didn't have that type of impact. Teams were generally happy to let Pippen do whatever he wanted in the half court. Yeah, Pippen was a good playmaker, but just too offensively limited for me to consider him on the same tier. Pippen led the team in the sense that he was the best player, but he wasn't really a leader, imo, which he demonstrated by having a historic meltdown that would've cost his team the game if not for Kukoc bailing out the team.

    To your point about Love, I've explained I reference that short time span because that is what I was initially referring to when I made the comparison. 2014 Love compared to Pippen. As I've also noted, we don't know what would've happened with love if he stays a #1 and doesn't get hurt. I thin if he stays in Minnesota and has a similar career to KG prior to leaving Boston (winning wise) and puts up another 4-7 seasons like 2014, I don't think too many would pick Pippen over Love (I surely wouldnt) and it's because Love would've ended up with a first ballot HOF caliber career where he just didn't end up winning much.
    I am not saying Pippen is close to the very top guys of course they are above your average superstar with how you are broadening the term. Just that he is closer to young Kobe or prime Ewing/Drexler than Kevin Love/Bosh/Kyrie. Ewing was better if you asked me as well but it's very close overall I would say is the main point and many have it different ways because their impact was at least close. Unlike other situations you call close where there are more distinct differences (young Kobe to peak Shaq, Lebron to Kobe, Pippen to Love). There are the types of things you call close while saying Pippen is so far away despite what I have noted. He was definitely the leader that year stop it, leaders can have meltdowns too. He was 3rd in MVP voting and their offensive focal point that season.

    What do you think happened to Love that made him never hit those levels again when you say hurt? When exactly did that injury happen? Love in terms of Lebrons superstar teammates supposedly matters because Love wasn't there in finals 1 and was injured during 2 so what does 2014 Love have to do with being his teammate? You can think whatever you want about Love but I am pointing out what he has done especially in terms of being a superstar teammate which is what was in that thread repeatedly. Him never leading a team anywhere like Scottie did as the man but just saying you think he could to call him a superstar is the problem. Then you said Scottie wasn't one. The inconsistencies are the issue.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-16-2021 at 07:59 PM.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    This is where it gets difficult to have further discussion because I mostly do not agree that current impact measures fully capture what I care about, which is the extent to which a superstar player warps the floor and you disagree with this. I think their basic stats on their best seasons show a clear difference between Pippen and Drexler and Ewing. I'm basing my assessment on the eye test and on these basic stats, which basically supports my assessment via the eye test.
    If impact measures canít capture anything, than traditional stats can capture less than nothing.

    I trust the analytics we do have over your eyes, especially given some of the bizarre takes your eyes have had.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am not saying Pippen is close to the very top guys of course they are above your average superstar with how you are broadening the term. Just that he is closer to young Kobe or prime Ewing/Drexler than Kevin Love/Bosh/Kyrie. Ewing was better if you asked me as well but it's very close overall I would say is the main point and many have it different ways because their impact was at least close. Unlike other situations you call close where there are more distinct differences (young Kobe to peak Shaq, Lebron to Kobe, Pippen to Love). There are the types of things you call close while saying Pippen is so far away despite what I have noted. He was definitely the leader that year stop it, leaders can have meltdowns too. He was 3rd in MVP voting and their offensive focal point that season.

    What do you think happened to Love that made him never hit those levels again when you say hurt? When exactly did that injury happen? Love in terms of Lebrons superstar teammates supposedly matters because Love wasn't there in finals 1 and was injured during 2 so what does 2014 Love have to do with being his teammate? You can think whatever you want about Love but I am pointing out what he has done especially in terms of being a superstar teammate which is what was in that thread repeatedly. Then you said Scottie wasn't one. The inconsistencies are the issue.
    Yeah man, so we're not going to agree because again I see young kobe as already being one of those top guys and you don't. Comparing Ewing's 90-95 seasons to any of Pippen's top seasons frankly don't seem close to me.

    As for Love, he's had a malady of injuries, one after another pretty much every year. Pointing out that Love wasn't a superstar under LBJ doesn't really move the needle because part of the argument was that LBJ was partly responsible for that decrease, but I think all of the injuries also had an impact (as might his mental healthy issues). His body seemed to change where he seemed to lose some weight and muscle. I said these guys were borderline type of players and we changed our view of what love was retrospectively. Going over, he was definitely thought to be a superstar (I thought he was).

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    If impact measures canít capture anything, than traditional stats can capture less than nothing.

    I trust the analytics we do have over your eyes, especially given some of the bizarre takes your eyes have had.
    And I trust my expertise (which I do have on this matter) and the issues ive raised against analytics so therein lies where we disagree on how we evaluate players. But anytime you want to put my eyes to the test and actually make explicitly predictions (either about teams or individual players), let me know: my eyes versus anyone else's or any models you'd like to use.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 08:14 PM.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    And I trust my expertise (which I do have on this matter) and the issues ive raised against analytics so therein lies where we disagree on how we evaluate players. But anytime you want to put my eyes to the test and actually make explicitly predictions (either about teams or individual players), let me know: my eyes versus anyone else's or any models you'd like to use.
    What are your credentials to posit expertise in this area?

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    What are your credentials to posit expertise in this area?
    I have extensive training in statistical analyses and measurement and assessment (Ph.D. across multiple science disciplines) and have taught graduate level courses on these topics to Ph.D. students. I also have extensive training in using predictive math modeling (and use it regularly in my research) so I trust what I have learned in over a decade in a half of training and research. Basketball analytics are not really intended to assess which players are better. They are capturing information for sure, but not really whether Player A is better than Player B. There's some cool stuff out there that is starting to do some of the things I would accept as being more valid in assessing players but nothing that I've come across yet. I don't blame you guys for not believing me. I'm just some random dude on the internet. I probably wouldnt believe me either, but that doesn't change the reality of the matter. I could of course be wrong, as experts are certainly not infallible, but I do believe the issues I've raised against basketball analytics are very much valid. I don't think your positions on how you assess players are unreasonable, but I disagree for reasons I've stated over the past couple of years.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 08:51 PM.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    What are your credentials to posit expertise in this area?
    I was born really really smart


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I was born really really smart


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  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yeah man, so we're not going to agree because again I see young kobe as already being one of those top guys and you don't. Comparing Ewing's 90-95 seasons to any of Pippen's top seasons frankly don't seem close to me.

    As for Love, he's had a malady of injuries, one after another pretty much every year. Pointing out that Love wasn't a superstar under LBJ doesn't really move the needle because part of the argument was that LBJ was partly responsible for that decrease, but I think all of the injuries also had an impact (as might his mental healthy issues). His body seemed to change where he seemed to lose some weight and muscle. I said these guys were borderline type of players and we changed our view of what love was retrospectively. Going over, he was definitely thought to be a superstar (I thought he was).
    That is part of my point. You are saying 01/02 Kobe is on the same level of peak Shaq type where it is close. You don't think Pippen is close to Ewing/Drexler and a similar type of superstar though. Everyone else sees a big difference in young Kobe and peak Shaq while there is at least some mixed debate and opinion on Ewing/Pippen. It isn't about Pippen being necessarily as good as Ewing (most seem to think better than Drexler though) it is about the inconsistencies.

    It isn't just about him under LBJ it is him never doing that again in his career and those teams not having success, there have been times since where he isn't injured since and done little/nothing. Peak healthy Love was very good but overrated due to the role pointed out and those stats coming based off touches/context as much or more than him just creating and never going to be a
    #1 (or even a #2 without very very good 3-5 or so) option on a legitimate contender in todays NBA like Pippen was then. Plenty of people are thought of as going to be a superstar but only some become it and he did not at all in the end. He went backwards possibly in part due to injury but also as noted was already being propped up due to role. You mentioned him similar to KG before Boston but he was not that guy that could carry a team to the playoffs nor did he create in the same ways offensively despite some numbers (as I also noted there is a lot more than offense/volume scoring when considering impact and these two show part of that both on O and D).

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    That is part of my point. You are saying 01/02 Kobe is on the same level of peak Shaq type where it is close. You don't think Pippen is close to Ewing/Drexler and a similar type of superstar though. Everyone else sees a big difference in young Kobe and peak Shaq while there is at least some mixed debate and opinion on Ewing/Pippen. It isn't about Pippen being necessarily as good as Ewing (most seem to think better than Drexler though) it is about the inconsistencies.

    It isn't just about him under LBJ it is him never doing that again in his career and those teams not having success, there have been times since where he isn't injured since and done little/nothing. Peak healthy Love was very good but overrated due to the role pointed out and those stats coming based off touches/context as much or more than him just creating and never going to be a
    #1 (or even a #2 without very very good 3-5 or so) option on a legitimate contender in todays NBA like Pippen was then. Plenty of people are thought of as going to be a superstar but only some become it and he did not at all in the end. He went backwards possibly in part due to injury but also as noted was already being propped up due to role. You mentioned him similar to KG before Boston but he was not that guy that could carry a team to the playoffs nor did he create in the same ways offensively despite some numbers (as I also noted there is a lot more than offense/volume scoring when considering impact and these two show part of that both on O and D).
    In regards to Kobe, I saw a big difference between 00 kobe and shaq, but think that most of that difference disappeared after that. I basically I viewed Kobe from 01 and on as being in the top 10 all time and then later climbing into the top 5, you don't. We simply aren't going to agree on that so really no need to keep discussing it at this point. Unless some new method of assessment comes about that changes my mind or yours, it's not really worth discussing because we've discussed it pretty extensively at this point.

    I agree that Love definitely didn't get there (at least not for any kind of sustained period), but my point was that if he had just replicated 2014 and kept losing he would've certainly had been thought of as a first ballot HOF and I think would've been considered fairly better than Pippen if that is what had happened because 2014 and 2012 (I think that was the other one) were amazing seasons for him.

    I didn't mean to say that Love was like KG before Boston, I was simply saying if Love had that kind of career of putting up great numbers but not really winning anything or making deep runs and basically replicated his 2014 season over this entire time. I agree that KG was far better than Love and I agree with your entire assessment of KG vs. Love. I was simply making the point that even if you're right about Love, what he was doing was still pretty amazing (and I actually don't think Pippen could replicate that sort of production even if he was featured like Love was; lots of guys are featured and never come close to putting up 26 and 13 on multiple seasons). At the end of the day, we'll never know what might've been of Love's career if not for the injuries and if he stays as the main guy.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-16-2021 at 09:35 PM.

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